Speculative AJ thread

[KJ3]

Originally Posted by popanot

Like I said, this topic is silly. Philly would laugh at either one of those offers.

i thought they were pretty much ready to strike this offseason for either sheppard or their 1sts....why would they laugh at andre?

[nunusguy]

Originally Posted by Keith

Iirc, the unamortized bonus money accelerates immediately regardless of when the trade happens.

I agree with popanot here. A little off-topic, but the player we should have traded was Rosenfels, a QB discarded by a passer-deficient Dolphins team two years ago who suddenly gained some trade value (at least before about 2:45pm yesterday). Anyone wish they had a third rounder for him now?

If we're looking to trade anyone, you start with overpriced vets who might benefit from a new scheme or a change in scenery, guys like Tony Weaver and Morlon Greenwood ...though there is no one interested in picking up their salaries, Weaver especially. There are so few trades of household name players in the NFL for good reason.

I dunno, but really bet you wouldn't be saying that if not for the last 3 or 4 minutes of Sundays Texans-Colts game ? 20-20 as they say - perfect hindsight.
And sure we'd like to trade Weaver or Greenwood if there was only takers
on those fat contracts. Like the sub-prime mess (mortgage balances > home market values), compensation package > player market value.

[nero THE zero]

Originally Posted by popanot

Like I said, this topic is silly. Philly would laugh at either one of those offers.

I thought it was an interesting topic; that's why I took the time to sit down and type out my thoughts to share. Is it improbable? Sure. But, I think it's interesting nonetheless.

If you feel otherwise, you're more than welcome to ignore it. I don't really see how it's constructive to come in and belittle it like that though.

And, as KJ said, Philly was willing to give up Lito for Roy Williams or Chad Johnson straight up. I don't think it's inconcievable that a greater, younger talent; with no attitude; who's under contract, IIRC, for 6 more years garners an extra first in the deal.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by nunusguy

I dunno, but really bet you wouldn't be saying that if not for the last 3 or 4 minutes of Sundays Texans-Colts game ? 20-20 as they say - perfect hindsight.

haha, so true, but I have, fairly or not, never been a huge fan of Sage's. I wrote a pretty ugly article after the team signed him (and Jameel Cook and Anthony Weaver) saying the 'new' Texans were blowing it in free agency just like the 'old' Texans.

I owned up awhile ago on Sage being more than worth the contract, so my hindsight is certainly clearer there, but I was/is all for trading Sage then and now (knowing of course now is really not likely anyway).

Sage is signed through 2009, so an offseason trade is still a possibility. Regardless, I'm in favor of using a draft pick (no earlier than a second) on a QB next April, and a suitable veteran backup is almost always available - heck, I still think the Texans had one before they let Quinn Gray go. Journeyman backup QBs are a dime a dozen imo, and to get something as meaningful as a third rounder for one just screams value to me.

And sorry for officially derailing this thread.

And nero - i think the length of this thread is more than enough evidence that this is an interesting topic, just one that might be a bit silly given the realities of the NFL's salary cap rules and general lack of blockbuster trades. Regardless, thanks for starting it... more interesting threads here is a good thing.

[popanot]

Originally Posted by nero THE zero

I thought it was an interesting topic; that's why I took the time to sit down and type out my thoughts to share. Is it improbable? Sure. But, I think it's interesting nonetheless.

If you feel otherwise, you're more than welcome to ignore it. I don't really see how it's constructive to come in and belittle it like that though.

And, as KJ said, Philly was willing to give up Lito for Roy Williams or Chad Johnson straight up. I don't think it's inconcievable that a greater, younger talent; with no attitude; who's under contract, IIRC, for 6 more years garners an extra first in the deal.

Sorry, I'm not trying to belittle anyone. I'm saying no one would do that deal and it's crazy thinking someone will, or, to give up on our young talent at this point. Anyway, you're saying that AJ is worth Sheppard and a #1, but RW or CJ is only worth Sheppard? I don't think teams think as highly of AJ as we fans do. The Eagles were holding out for a #1 for Sheppard, so from Philly's perspective, they'd be giving up 2 #1s for AJ. They can find someone better or close to AJ's talent (Bolden, perhaps?) for cheaper than that. I can see Sheppard and a #2 or #3 or something like that, but not Sheppard + a #1.

[popanot]

Originally Posted by KJ3

i thought they were pretty much ready to strike this offseason for either sheppard or their 1sts....why would they laugh at andre?

Strike for who? They never made any deal so apparently they feel Sheppard's value is pretty high. I dunno. I'm not saying they'd laugh at AJ, just that they'd laugh if we came to table asking Sheppard + a #1 or their 2 #1's for AJ. I doubt any team would give up that much for AJ. The guy was a top 5 pick, but it's not like he's produced big time numbers for someone to give up that much for him. At this point, and aside from his recent injury, Anqaun Bolden's value is higher than AJ's.

[nero THE zero]

Originally Posted by popanot

Sorry, I'm not trying to belittle anyone. I'm saying no one would do that deal and it's crazy thinking someone will, or, to give up on our young talent at this point. Anyway, you're saying that AJ is worth Sheppard and a #1, but RW or CJ is only worth Sheppard? I don't think teams think as highly of AJ as we fans do. The Eagles were holding out for a #1 for Sheppard, so from Philly's perspective, they'd be giving up 2 #1s for AJ. They can find someone better or close to AJ's talent (Bolden, perhaps?) for cheaper than that. I can see Sheppard and a #2 or #3 or something like that, but not Sheppard + a #1.

Yea, maybe that's why talks broke down. Philly wasn't willing to give up more than Shephard and the other teams wanted more back.

[KJ3]

Originally Posted by popanot

Strike for who? They never made any deal so apparently they feel Sheppard's value is pretty high. I dunno. I'm not saying they'd laugh at AJ, just that they'd laugh if we came to table asking Sheppard + a #1 or their 2 #1's for AJ. I doubt any team would give up that much for AJ. The guy was a top 5 pick, but it's not like he's produced big time numbers for someone to give up that much for him. At this point, and aside from his recent injury, Anqaun Bolden's value is higher than AJ's.

they feel sheppard's value is high or that roy williams/chad ocho crazo aren't worth sheppard or their 1sts. figures, because the chad isn't doing much, neither is anyone in la-la-land, michigan. frankly i think andre is better than both of them, and at least andre johnson has produced consistent numbers enough to get him a few probowls from a not very popular team and as a not as popular player (especially the position he plays). logic says if he was on a decent team his numbers would become even more stout.

specifically to a. bolden, the eagles were reported in going after him too if i can remember right. i guess either arizona thought boldin was worth more than any combo of sheppard/2 1st rounders, or the eagles want some kind of jerry rice/god combo at wideout for pennies.

either way, the only people who should be laughing is anyone who knows that if philly wants an elite wideout they're going to have to pony up to the elite price.

[Mike]

You know what, the mad AJ that we saw Sunday is not someone I want to trade. AJ commands too much attention and can just dominate. Can you imagine what he would do for a team with a real RB? Put him with Peterson and watch the Viking offense take off. With the hint of a running game, he is a deadly weapon.

We need to continue to get him the ball. Forget trading him. I would be sick if the team considered that. Trading away its best player would be detrimental to the franchise. What message would that send the fan base? The other players would be devestated. It sends the wrong message. We would be no better than the Pirates if we started doing crap like that.

[nunusguy]

KANSAS CITY, Mo. -- Tony Gonzalez, the most productive tight end in NFL history, will be traded to a contender if the Kansas City Chiefs get the right price.
ESPN's Michael Smith first reported the fact Gonzalez was to be shopped Saturday.
A league source confirmed to ESPN that Gonzalez went to Chiefs GM Carl Peterson and inquired about a trade to a contender earlier this week.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3638551
********************************
The Texans should do exactly the same thing if AJ or his agent were to
approach them. And the big difference here is that Gonzalez, great in his prime, at 32 is arguably on the downside of his career while AJ is a full 5 years
younger.

[nunusguy]

''Too many big plays,'' coach Tony Sparano said. ``[Johnson] is a hell of a player. I've been watching the same thing for years playing against him, and he did a hell of a job [Sunday].''
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/brea...ry/723415.html
****************************************
OK, so I said the other day before Sundays game vs the 'Phins I'd trade AJ.
I'd still still trade him, but whatever the price was has just gone up. A lot.

[da Bull]

I agree. Two weeks ago (Jacksonville) when AJ was not the featured receiver the offense looked much more efficient as a group. The past two weeks when AJ was the featured receiver and he did make some all-world plays the other receivers did not look as effective. It's as though they're standing around waiting on AJ to make a play, figuratively speaking. You would think it would be the opposite, AJ drawing so much attention that everyone else would be wide open....either one of two things: a) the other receivers can't get open as they did in the Jacksonville game or b) the coaches are defining the play for AJ pretty much exclusively, so he won't go into a funk. Is there a c?

Regarding a trade of AJ, I think it boils down to: Can the Texans be effective offensely without him? I think yes, but definitely not with the same flare. Can they win without him? Maybe, maybe not...big plays at the end of games do make a difference as observed yesterday. Win consistently? No, not without a better defense. So to pick up a couple of better defensive players either via the draft or direct trade for AJ would improve the team, in my opinion.

[painekiller]

AJ is so good there is no way to get enough value for him. I think we will have to live with him.

[KJ3]

Originally Posted by da Bull

So to pick up a couple of better defensive players either via the draft or direct trade for AJ would improve the team, in my opinion.

in 2-3 years our defense would be better? because our offense takes the hit immediately.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by da Bull

I agree. Two weeks ago (Jacksonville) when AJ was not the featured receiver the offense looked much more efficient as a group. The past two weeks when AJ was the featured receiver and he did make some all-world plays the other receivers did not look as effective. It's as though they're standing around waiting on AJ to make a play, figuratively speaking. You would think it would be the opposite, AJ drawing so much attention that everyone else would be wide open....either one of two things: a) the other receivers can't get open as they did in the Jacksonville game or b) the coaches are defining the play for AJ pretty much exclusively, so he won't go into a funk. Is there a c?

Regarding a trade of AJ, I think it boils down to: Can the Texans be effective offensely without him? I think yes, but definitely not with the same flare. Can they win without him? Maybe, maybe not...big plays at the end of games do make a difference as observed yesterday. Win consistently? No, not without a better defense. So to pick up a couple of better defensive players either via the draft or direct trade for AJ would improve the team, in my opinion.

Week 3
386 yards and 27 points

Week 4-5 (when you claim they were less effective with AJ as the feature guy)
438 yards and 28 points


And also take into account that the game when you thought everyone else looked good was a game in which the Jags doubled AJ all game and singled up on all our other guys.

[Nconroe]

I'd generally be against trading our best player. Maybe if you got a Herschel Walker type offer I'd consider it, maybe. I guess AJ is a lot happier now and doesn't want to be traded either.

[superbowlbound]

I think it's far too early for this type of discussion, as intriguing as it may be. The fact is, we're still a very young team with a very young front office and a ridiculous excuse for a defensive coordinator. Don't get me wrong, we're nowhere near "there" yet, obviously; but I've seen us grow a little as a team each week after our embarassing loss vs Pittsburgh. We'll see what the next couple weeks hold, but that comeback on sunday had a different feel to it. Schaub responding the way he did to those 2 early picks was fantastic to see, and we finally saw the defense make a big play down the stretch (of course eugene fumbled it back and we let them walk down the field unimpeded, but the play was made, and the mistake can be fixed). Kevin Walter has grown into a very solid no. 2, as evidenced by his 98 yards to go with AJ's 178. Steve Slaton appears to be at least a short-term answer to the team's running problems with his big play ability, and Mario is getting tougher by the game. Are we going to make the playoffs this year? probably not, but i think we've still got 8-8 in us, and another year in the middle of the pack wouldn't be the worst thing in the world from a draft perspective. At the start of the year everyone was saying we're still a year away, and that's still true. AJ's played out of his head since he made those comments, and I'm glad he made them. I'm sure his comments scared the piss out of the organization, and they'll do whatever they can to make him happy go lucky dre again, again evidenced by his 10 catches on sunday. Winning cures everything, and I think we've got a lot more of them in store. We turned a corner yesterday, fellas. Let's not get crazy and ship off key pieces before we know what the puzzle's gonna look like.

[jppaul]

The last two games of this year I have seen something from AJ that I didn't see last year. That was his will to fight for the football, to excercise physical dominance over the cornerback if the throw was up for grabs.

Last year he just didn't seem to have it, it was his best season statistically but his spectular catches weren't there. For instance that interception early in the season in the endzone, or letting the browns second stringer take balls away from him when he got back.

This year that nastiness is back, owning Yeremiah Bell, and the previous week taking that ball away from the colts defender in the end zone.

I like it.

[Keith]

Well, the question of what Andre's value is just got a little clearer at least. Schefter says:

The Lions have traded WR Roy Williams to the Cowboys for a first, third and sixth round pick. The Cowboys also receive a seventh-round pick from the Lions in 2009.

http://blogs.nfl.com/2008/10/14/cowb...-from-detroit/

[painekiller]

Originally Posted by Keith

Well, the question of what Andre's value is just got a little clearer at least. Schefter says:



http://blogs.nfl.com/2008/10/14/cowb...-from-detroit/

That is a hell of a deal by the Lions.