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#141
11-20-2013, 01:57 AM
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------------------------------- Vandermeer reported on the radio Keenum #7 jerseys are flying off the shelves as Christmas presents.... 
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#142
11-20-2013, 02:04 AM
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1. Kurt Warner, QB, Northern Iowa
Signed by: St. Louis Rams First year: 1998 NFL seasons: 12 Pro Bowls: 4 All-Pro selections: 2 Notes: In addition to being perhaps the greatest Cinderella story in NFL history, Warner is a two-time league MVP who has posted the three best single-game passing yardage totals in Super Bowl history.
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#143
11-20-2013, 02:15 AM
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4. Warren Moon, QB, Washington
Signed by: Houston Oilers First year: 1984 NFL seasons: 17 Pro Bowls: 9 All-Pro selections: 0 Notes: Hall of Famer ranks in the top six all-time for career attempts, completions, yards and TD passes.
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#144
11-20-2013, 02:27 AM
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Warren Moon was an undrafted free agent who even brought along his head coach (Hugh Campbell). Kurt Warner was a UDFA. Derek Anderson was a sixth-rounder that became the starting QB both in Cleveland and Arizona.
If he continues to start, Keenum will have half a season under his belt and, if he continues his current pace, he'll finish with a 99.0 QB rating, higher this year than Schaub (77.8), higher than Stafford (92.0), Newton (91.8), Roethlisberger (91.3), Ryan (89.2), Cutler (88.4), Luck (87.0), Dalton (85.2), Brady (83.6), RG3 (83.6) and Kaepernick (81.8). But, of course, Keenum was never drafted so he'll never play again in this league.  To be fair, ESPN.com has the Total Quarterback Rating (QBR) and rates him at 42.5 out of 100, a ranking still better than Ryan Tannehill, Eli Manning, Matt Schaub, Terrell Pryor, Chad Henne, Geno Smith and Josh Freeman. Last edited by HPF Bob; 11-20-2013 at 02:37 AM.
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#145
11-20-2013, 09:13 AM
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Where did I say anything about UDFA QBs not being able to play? I wrote about 1000 words because I love hearing myself talk, and none of them say anything about Case not being good because he is an UDFA. I said no new coach is going to take a guy with zero track record and zero pedigree.
You can bring up Romo but it isn't even a little similar. Romo survived the Parcells to Phillips transition after starting all 16 games for a 9-7 playoff team. He was already established as the starting QB and had led a team to the playoffs when they changed coaches. Not to mention a new coach was hired because Parcells left, not because he was fired. If Case led us to the playoffs I am pretty sure he would survive a new coach. Obviously that's not happening. Tony Romo, Warren Moon, and Kurt Warner have nothing to do with whether a new coach will bet his career on a guy with no positive track record.
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#146
11-20-2013, 10:20 AM
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To me, the question is simple. Do you think Case can become an elite QB? If not, you have to try and find one. While i think Case will likely be a serviceable QB, I'm very skeptical of him being great. We've had 8 years of serviceable quarterbacking and you saw where that got us-a damn near riot when our seviceable QB was put in the game last Sunday.
The game has changed. Between rule changes, changes in offensive philosophies, etc., I would argue that who your QB is is almost more important than who the other 52 guys on the team are. Texan fans should know this better than anyone, as we suffered through Manning and are just beginning the Luck era.
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#147
11-20-2013, 10:34 AM
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And let me just add, if you like Case, how are you not drooling over JFF? All he has done is singlehandedly dominate the toughest conference in football as a redshirt freshman and sophomore in the offense Case ran in college. He's Case on steroids.
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#148
11-20-2013, 10:45 AM
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All I'm saying is "don't throw him overboard just because he wasn't drafted". Give him a fair chance to win the job, which is probably the rest of 2013. Bring in another guy if you think he's better but the numbers say (at present) that Keenum is better than a lot of former high draft choices that fans drool over.
And don't judge solely on W-L record because he doesn't have the team's top TE, the team's top RB (also a UDFA if anyone recalls) and a piss-poor right side of an offensive line. However, it can be noted that every game he has played in, the Texans were close enough to win with a break or two. I don't hold him responsible for any of the four losses.
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#149
11-20-2013, 11:28 AM
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For the record, in 2006 the Cowboys were 3-3 after 6 games - Romo replacing Bledsoe in game #6 (a loss to NYG). This was the game, Parcells made the famous quip, (paraphrasing) "Let's not go and anoint him just yet" and everyone goes "har har har, oh, that Parcells.... such a wise and funny guy". But guess who Parcells starts the rest of the year?...... that's right, Tony Romo. Dallas went 6-4 the rest of the way, Romo bobbles the FG snap against Seattle and its over. Wade Phillips, already on the staff, comes in the next year as head coach. (This is a possibility with the Texans - Wade as replacement or placeholder)....
Last edited by Arky; 11-20-2013 at 11:51 AM.
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#150
11-20-2013, 11:39 AM
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#151
11-20-2013, 12:37 PM
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There is plenty to intrigue me. He has not played himself into or out of a job this year and may well do either down the stretch. If Kubiak is coming back the best option is probably Case, something else high in the draft, and an attempt at an immediate reload and hoping this year was an anomaly (from McNair's perspective). Then Kubiak and Case get a year to win a future here. But if Kubiak is not coming back it's a near gaurantee Case isn't either. He just hasn't done anything in the pros that would make a new coach tie his star to him.
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#152
11-20-2013, 12:44 PM
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I don't think the RG3 thing worries me a ton though. RG3 is not elusive no matter how fast he is (world class speed). He is a straight line guy. Purely in terms of running ability, Manziel looks more like a faster Russel Wilson. He does it with pump fakes and spins and reversing his field and vision. When he scrambles it is essentially Sandlot football. Griffin is straight up field without a ton of wiggle when he scrambles, so guys get way more clean shots (plus he's bad about getting out of bounds or getting down). I don't recall a ton of clean shots on Manziel in the games I've watched. I think his tendency to turn the ball over is way more concerning than anything else.
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#153
11-20-2013, 01:04 PM
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I don't see the accuracy issues with JFF. Isn't he leading all of college football in completion percentage at around 75%? While that's not the end-all, be-all, it's hard to lead the nation in completion percentage as an inaccurate QB.
Turnovers are somewhat of a concern but I'm not sure they aren't a function of him thinking he has to come away with points every possession. He'll never say it, of course, but I suspect he wouldn't take as many chances if his defense played a little better. Admittedly this is speculation on my part.
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#154
11-20-2013, 01:21 PM
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There are 6 games left for Keenum to prove his worth. A lot can happen between now and then. Who knows, if the Texans win 6 or 7 games, McNair might point to the injuries as the reason for the poor season and Kubes stays. Like I've said, this discussion can be better addressed in the offseason....
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#155
11-20-2013, 01:34 PM
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However, the most likely outcome is Kubiak being fired and the Texans having a top 5 pick. So it ultimately boils down to whether the new coach would rather hitch his wagon to Case or one of the QBs thought to potentially go in the top 5 (Mariota, Bridgewater, Hundley, JFF). That's the question. I'd be very surprised if any coach went with Case over one of them.
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#156
11-20-2013, 01:37 PM
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#157
11-20-2013, 01:55 PM
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Um, because those guys are almost universally thought of as better pro prospects than Keenum based upon the fact that they are, by all accounts, universally thought of as 1st round picks, and Keenum was universally not considered an NFL prospect, as evidenced by him not being drafted at all and being allowed to sit untouched on the practice squad for a year.
And, I suspect you're joking about (a) Keenum having a better college career and (b) that this automatically translates into what they'll be at the next level, so I won't bother. However, here's an interesting thought experiment. Do you think we could get a top 5 pick for Keenum? The question answers itself, doesn't it? Whoever did that would get crushed. That is the trade you're essentially asking the next coach to make.
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#158
11-20-2013, 02:28 PM
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Statistically, Keenum had a better college career than all those guys. That's. Just. Reality. He was Heisman candidate.... He went undrafted because he was too small by NFL standards and got injured and sucked at the combine... Doesn't mean he's not a baller... Please join me in watching Keenum for the rest of the year where we may better determine if he's got what it takes.....  Then, perhaps then we can discuss the merits of each of these can't-miss 1st round franchise QB's.....
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#159
11-20-2013, 02:41 PM
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just to cover this way to much- so Keenum should joint this list - quite a few names one might recognize as good QBs went undrafted, some not.
http://www.footballperspective.com/m...qb-since-2003/ The table below includes all undrafted quarterbacks who started a game during the first season in which they played a game. Quarterback Year Team Age Record College Jeff Tuel 2013 BUF 22 0-1 Washington St. Max Hall 2010 ARI 25 1-2 BYU Matt Moore 2007 CAR 23 2-1 UCLA; Oregon State Brock Berlin 2007 STL 26 0-1 Florida; Miami (FL) Chad Hutchinson 2002 DAL 25 2-7 Stanford Henry Burris 2002 CHI 27 0-1 Temple Todd Bouman 2001 MIN 29 1-2 St. Cloud State Anthony Wright 2000 DAL 24 0-2 South Carolina Doug Johnson 2000 ATL 23 0-2 Florida Jake Delhomme 1999 NOR 24 1-1 La-Lafayette Jeff Garcia 1999 SFO 29 2-8 Gavilan J.C.; San Jose State Jon Kitna 1997 SEA 25 1-0 Central Washington Kelly Holcomb 1997 IND 24 0-1 Middle Tennessee State Jason Garrett 1993 DAL 27 1-0 Princeton; Columbia Brad Goebel 1991 PHI 24 0-2 Baylor Erik Kramer 1987 ATL 23 1-1 Pierce J.C. ; North Carolina State John Fourcade 1987 NOR 27 2-1 Mississippi Adrian Breen 1987 CIN 22 0-1 Morehead State Rick Neuheisel 1987 SDG 26 2-0 UCLA Ken Karcher 1987 DEN 24 2-1 Delgado CC; Notre Dame; Tulane Todd Hons 1987 DET 26 1-2 El Camino J.C.; Arizona State Bob Bleier 1987 NWE 23 1-1 Richmond Mike Hohensee 1987 CHI 26 2-0 Mount San Antonio J.C.; Minnesota Matt Stevens 1987 KAN 23 0-2 UCLA Ed Rubbert 1987 WAS 23 3-0 Louisville Shawn Halloran 1987 STL 23 1-1 Boston College Jim Crocicchia 1987 NYG 23 0-1 Pennsylvania Jeff Van Raaphorst 1987 ATL 24 0-1 Arizona State Scott Tinsley 1987 PHI 28 0-2 USC Willie Totten 1987 BUF 25 0-1 Mississippi Valley State Mike Busch 1987 NYG 25 0-1 Idaho State; South Dakota State Bobby Hebert 1985 NOR 25 2-4 Northwestern State (LA) Dieter Brock 1985 RAM 34 12-5 Jacksonville State; Auburn Warren Moon 1984 HOU 28 3-13 Washington Mike Loyd 1980 STL 24 0-1 Kansas; Tulsa; Missouri Southern State Joe Pisarcik 1977 NYG 25 4-7 New Mexico State Terry Luck 1977 CLE 25 0-1 Nebraska Jim Zorn 1976 SEA 23 2-12 Cal Poly-Pomona Don Milan 1975 GNB 26 0-1 Cal Poly-San Luis Obispo Will Cureton 1975 CLE 25 0-1 Texas A&M-Commerce J.J. Jones 1975 NYJ 23 0-1 Fisk Larry Lawrence 1974 OAK 25 1-0 Iowa; Miami (FL) Bill Demory 1973 NYJ 23 1-2 Arizona Rick Arrington 1970 PHI 23 0-1 Georgia; Tulsa Don Gault 1970 CLE 24 1-0 Hofstra Sam Wyche 1968 CIN 23 1-2 Furman Tom Sherman 1968 BOS 23 1-6 Penn State Kent Nix 1967 PIT 23 3-6 TCU John Stofa 1966 MIA 24 1-0 Buffalo Max Choboian 1966 DEN 24 3-4 Oregon; Cal State-Northridge Tom Kennedy 1966 NYG 27 0-1 Glendale CC (CA); Los Angeles State Don Breaux 1963 DEN 23 0-2 McNeese State Sam Etcheverry 1961 STL 31 4-5 Denver Tom Flores 1960 OAK 23 5-7 Fresno City J.C.; Pacific Hunter Enis 1960 DTX 24 1-0 TCU Tom Greene 1960 BOS 22 1-1 Holy Cross
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#160
11-20-2013, 03:18 PM
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As for an undrafted person outperforming a drafted one, sure it happens. Someone also wins the lottery or comes home from Vegas with more money than they started with. Doesn't mean the odds are good. There is a wikipedia page which lists all the starting QBs in the league. Take a look, the overwhelmingly majority were taken early in the draft. The handful of late round/undrafted starters are not exactly a who's who of guys you would want to build your team around.
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