Jaguars Offense vs. Texans Offense [Split Thread]

[popanot]

Originally Posted by chuck

We're talking about the Jaguars here, dude. Let's remain realistic.

I don't think the Hags will be whipping boys for much longer. That is, unless they totally unravel. I'd trade our current offensive players for theirs if given the opportunity. If their O keeps growing and they sure up that D, I think they'll be pretty darn good. Definitely contenders in the division, which as you know currently stinks.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by popanot

I don't think the Hags will be whipping boys for much longer. That is, unless they totally unravel. I'd trade our current offensive players for theirs if given the opportunity. If their O keeps growing and they sure up that D, I think they'll be pretty darn good. Definitely contenders in the division, which as you know currently stinks.

They stink. They played a very easy schedule and went 5-10. They didn't beat a good team all year. The Colts and Texans played half their seasons with backup QBs and the Jags still couldn't be relevant in December. They are closer to the #1 overall draft pick than they are to the AFC south title. There is no dressing it up, the Jags are really bad.

[popanot]

Originally Posted by barrett

They stink. They played a very easy schedule and went 5-10. They didn't beat a good team all year. The Colts and Texans played half their seasons with backup QBs and the Jags still couldn't be relevant in December. They are closer to the #1 overall draft pick than they are to the AFC south title. There is no dressing it up, the Jags are really bad.

The whole AFCS stinks. So what? I'd still take their WRs, TE, RBs, and QB over ours. I'll keep our D. Yes, the Hags currently stink. I never said they were great (right now). I said they have a pretty good core (especially on offense) and could be pretty good in the near future.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by popanot

The whole AFCS stinks. So what? I'd still take their WRs, TE, RBs, and QB over ours. I'll keep our D. Yes, the Hags currently stink. I never said they were great (right now). I said they have a pretty good core (especially on offense) and could be pretty good in the near future.

Again, they are closer to the #1 overall pick than they are to the Hoyer/Mallett/Yates/Weeden led Texans. That core is going to get Gus Bradley fired next year.

[popanot]

Originally Posted by barrett

Again, they are closer to the #1 overall pick than they are to the Hoyer/Mallett/Yates/Weeden led Texans. That core is going to get Gus Bradley fired next year.

Maybe Bradley will get fired. Maybe Bradley has a little something to do with their record this year and last year. Regardless of record, reason, draft position or anything the Texans are doing, I'd still trade our offensive players for thier offensive players without hesitation.

EDIT: I already know you don't like Bortles (even though I can't imagine you wouldn't trade any of our QBs straight up for him), but other than Hopkins, who would you rather have on the Texans over the Jags offensive players? I'd trade Hopkins/Washington/Shorts/Strong for Allen/Hurns/Greene. I'd trade any and all of our TE's for Thomas. I'd trade an aging Foster and a crap lineup of Blue/Polk/Grimes for Yeldon/Robinson. I haven't paid much attention to the Jags OL, but I know their OL is younger than ours so I'd take a chance on them and our staff coaching them up over keeping an aging Brown and any of our other OL.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by popanot

Maybe Bradley will get fired. Maybe Bradley has a little something to do with their record this year and last year. Regardless of record, reason, draft position or anything the Texans are doing, I'd still trade our offensive players for thier offensive players without hesitation.

EDIT: I already know you don't like Bortles (even though I can't imagine you wouldn't trade any of our QBs straight up for him), but other than Hopkins, who would you rather have on the Texans over the Jags offensive players? I'd trade Hopkins/Washington/Shorts/Strong for Allen/Hurns/Greene. I'd trade any and all of our TE's for Thomas. I'd trade an aging Foster and a crap lineup of Blue/Polk/Grimes for Yeldon/Robinson. I haven't paid much attention to the Jags OL, but I know their OL is younger than ours so I'd take a chance on them and our staff coaching them up over keeping an aging Brown and any of our other OL.

Their OL is garbage. Their top pick of a few years ago has been a huge bust (Joekel). I wouldn't trade Hopkins for the whole of their skill guys added up. Yeldon is no different than our crappy backs except he was drafted higher and is paid more because of it.

On a bad team that is losing the whole time somebody is going to get offensive stats. It doesn't mean those guys are good. I don't like Bortles, but he is their most valuable offensive piece.

[popanot]

Originally Posted by barrett

I wouldn't trade Hopkins for the whole of their skill guys added up.

LOL! OK...

Yeldon is no different than our crappy backs except he was drafted higher and is paid more because of it..

Pretty sure Foster makes more than Yeldon while sitting on IR, but last I checked, a 2nd RD draft pick isn't exactly a cap killer. I'd take his potential and CRAZY high salary (wait, we're paying Su'ia-Filo how much and for what??) over Blue's or any of our other slugs at RB in a heartbeat.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by popanot

LOL! OK...

Pretty sure Foster makes more than Yeldon while sitting on IR, but last I checked, a 2nd RD draft pick isn't exactly a cap killer. I'd take his potential and CRAZY high salary (wait, we're paying Su'ia-Filo how much and for what??) over Blue's or any of our other slugs at RB in a heartbeat.

What was that you were saying about their talented offensive core?

That team is terrible and devoid of talent.

[popanot]

Originally Posted by barrett

What was that you were saying about their talented offensive core?

That team is terrible and devoid of talent.

I figured you'd say that after today. Convenient, but I'm not going to let one meaningless - let's just get this season over with - road game against a good, highly motivated D negate a 35+ TD/4000yd season from Bortles, a 1200yd/15TD season from Allen Robinson, and a 1000yd/10TD season from Hurns. Keep trying buddy...

[barrett]

Originally Posted by popanot

I figured you'd say that after today. Convenient, but I'm not going to let one meaningless - let's just get this season over with - road game against a good, highly motivated D negate a 35+ TD/4000yd season from Bortles, a 1200yd/15TD season from Allen Robinson, and a 1000yd/10TD season from Hurns. Keep trying buddy...

Convenient? Not for Gus Bradley and the Jags.

I seriously don't get your insistence that these guys are good. Did you win a fantasy championship on Bortles' garbage time stats?

[popanot]

Originally Posted by barrett

Convenient? Not for Gus Bradley and the Jags.

I seriously don't get your insistence that these guys are good. Did you win a fantasy championship on Bortles' garbage time stats?

Nope. Won one championship with Ben and lost one with Rodgers at QB. I'll agree with you their OL sucks, but to say Bortles hasn't improved and doesn't look promising, or to say Allen Robinson and Allen Hurns aren't good players, and to say Yeldon sucks after one year (when you're also saying their OL sucks), seems nonsensical to me. Sorry, I disagree with you.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by popanot

Nope. Won one championship with Ben and lost one with Rodgers at QB. I'll agree with you their OL sucks, but to say Bortles hasn't improved and doesn't look promising, or to say Allen Robinson and Allen Hurns aren't good players, and to say Yeldon sucks after one year (when you're also saying their OL sucks), seems nonsensical to me. Sorry, I disagree with you.

I don't think Bortles sucks. I think he probably has an Andy Dalton type ceiling. Different player but same type level. I don't think he ever reaches that ceiling in Jacksonville. I think by the time he is in the top half of NFL QBs he will be way overpaid. You mention the 35 TD number, but our QB pu pu platter combined for 29 TDs. Hoyer threw TDs on 5.5% of his throws compared to 6.1% for Bortles. And Hoyer's TD:INT ratio is better. And that is comparing him to Brian Hoyer. There are a ton of young QBs I'd rather have (Winston, Marriota, Bridgewater, Carr).

I think Hurns is an NFL player and Robinson is a solid deep threat. I think Yeldon is not very good. RBs usually are what they are. They don't typically make much growth. Yeldon has 12 carries over 12 yards on 182 rushes and just 2 TDs. He has 700 mostly meaningless yards between the 20s. That is replacement level performance. Thomas is either an average TE who Manning made look great or a good TE that JAX made look bad. Their OL is awful. This is going to be hard to fix. They are committed to Joekel and he is really bad.

Overall they are a league average unit at best that only get better than that in volume stats. And much of their success comes in garbage time (they've trailed at half in 5 straight games and thrown a ton as a result). That is after investing the huge percentage of their draft and FA assets in the offense for 3 straight years.

I am not even a little scared they overtake us.

[chuck]

Originally Posted by barrett

...but our QB pu pu platter combined for 29 TDs.

Pu pu platters are awesome. Don't pooh pooh a pu pu platter.

[Nconroe]

Of course Jags are still 40 million under the cap, so they aren't spending compared to most teams. To much change to improve .

[popanot]

Originally Posted by barrett

I don't think Bortles sucks. I think he probably.....

No matter how much you dismiss Bortles' numbers and try to validate Hoyer's/HOU QB's (even though we had quite a few blow-out garbage time TD's), I'd still trade Hoyer/Nuk/Washington/Blue-Etc/Griffin-etc for Bortles/ARobinson/Hurns/Yeldon/DRobinson/Thomas without blinking an eye. I'm pretty confident most, if not all, NFL GM's would do the same. I'd also be confident our coaching staff could develop and help improve any weaknesses these players might have. In addition, a much better D would be less likely to put them in bad situations and force them to take added risks. As for the other QBs you mention, of course there are other QBs I'd take over Bortles (maybe not all of the ones on your list), but that has nothing to do with my original point. It was strictly JAX/HOU players.

I'm not scared of them overtaking us either because I think their coaching staff sucks and they have a long way to go to upgrade that horrendous D. However, that doesn't change the fact I think they have a good, young offensive core.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by popanot

No matter how much you dismiss Bortles' numbers and try to validate Hoyer's/HOU QB's (even though we had quite a few blow-out garbage time TD's), I'd still trade Hoyer/Nuk/Washington/Blue-Etc/Griffin-etc for Bortles/ARobinson/Hurns/Yeldon/DRobinson/Thomas without blinking an eye. I'm pretty confident most, if not all, NFL GM's would do the same. I'd also be confident our coaching staff could develop and help improve any weaknesses these players might have. In addition, a much better D would be less likely to put them in bad situations and force them to take added risks. As for the other QBs you mention, of course there are other QBs I'd take over Bortles (maybe not all of the ones on your list), but that has nothing to do with my original point. It was strictly JAX/HOU players.

I'm not scared of them overtaking us either because I think their coaching staff sucks and they have a long way to go to upgrade that horrendous D. However, that doesn't change the fact I think they have a good, young offensive core.

If you want to pick one set or the other it is close but I probably go Jags.

But when you consider the fact that Jacksonville has invested large resources into their guys and thus are locked into them, I'd prefer our guys. Jacksonville cannot upgrade QB except with internal improvement. Bortles will be there until at least 1 (probably 2) coaches lose their job. The same is true with Yeldon to a lesser degree. They invested a 2nd round pick in him so he will keep getting low impact carries for at least a year or two. No assets will be spent on upgrading that position because the GM is tied to Yeldon. Same with Joekel. He wouldn't be on the field if the team didn't need to justify his draft position. He's a turnstile. But they can't do anything else until they cut bait. They are solid at WR, although I don't think there is a true #1 that teams fear. That is the hardest piece to fill at WR, and they will not be filling it any time soon because they are committed to all of their WRs already. I'd say their WR group is their best position group, but it is still not among the best in the NFL. Like I said earlier, at TE they either have a stud they ruined, or an average player made to look great by peak Peyton Manning. He averaged less than 10 YPC this year and did little in the redzone. Either way they are at least average or maybe good.

They have a mediocre offense that might reach above average potential if the coaching staff doesn't screw them up. But it's a low ceiling group that they are locked into. They are not replacing/upgrading any of the skill guys because the GM bet on all of them.

Houston has 1 piece we are tied to in our skill guys and a functional offensive line. But we are open to free to replace and shuffle everywhere else. I'd already take our WR group just based on Hopkins. There is not a GM out there who would deal a great WR for a really good one and a handful of above average ones. I also like Strong if O'Brien ever plays him. I'd take our RB situation over theirs. I like Blue more than Yeldon because he does more for the team (ST) and his draft position allows us to make him the #2 or #3 back without hesitation. I also like Hunt as a Roster spot guy. Our TEs are terrible. I'd take 31 other team's TE situation over ours. It think we have a solid OL and really good OL depth.

So I'd take the Jacksonville guys if I was required to take a group and stick with them the next 2 years. But I'd far prefer our group and the flexibility it allows. Of course that is assuming that O'Brien actually decides to address the QB situation at some time in the next 2 offseasons.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by barrett

If you want to pick one set or the other it is close but I probably go Jags.

But when you consider the fact that Jacksonville has invested large resources into their guys and thus are locked into them, I'd prefer our guys. Jacksonville cannot upgrade QB except with internal improvement. Bortles will be there until at least 1 (probably 2) coaches lose their job. The same is true with Yeldon to a lesser degree. They invested a 2nd round pick in him so he will keep getting low impact carries for at least a year or two. No assets will be spent on upgrading that position because the GM is tied to Yeldon. Same with Joekel. He wouldn't be on the field if the team didn't need to justify his draft position. He's a turnstile. But they can't do anything else until they cut bait. They are solid at WR, although I don't think there is a true #1 that teams fear. That is the hardest piece to fill at WR, and they will not be filling it any time soon because they are committed to all of their WRs already. I'd say their WR group is their best position group, but it is still not among the best in the NFL. Like I said earlier, at TE they either have a stud they ruined, or an average player made to look great by peak Peyton Manning. He averaged less than 10 YPC this year and did little in the redzone. Either way they are at least average or maybe good.

They have a mediocre offense that might reach above average potential if the coaching staff doesn't screw them up. But it's a low ceiling group that they are locked into. They are not replacing/upgrading any of the skill guys because the GM bet on all of them.

Houston has 1 piece we are tied to in our skill guys and a functional offensive line. But we are open to free to replace and shuffle everywhere else. I'd already take our WR group just based on Hopkins. There is not a GM out there who would deal a great WR for a really good one and a handful of above average ones. I also like Strong if O'Brien ever plays him. I'd take our RB situation over theirs. I like Blue more than Yeldon because he does more for the team (ST) and his draft position allows us to make him the #2 or #3 back without hesitation. I also like Hunt as a Roster spot guy. Our TEs are terrible. I'd take 31 other team's TE situation over ours. It think we have a solid OL and really good OL depth.

So I'd take the Jacksonville guys if I was required to take a group and stick with them the next 2 years. But I'd far prefer our group and the flexibility it allows. Of course that is assuming that O'Brien actually decides to address the QB situation at some time in the next 2 offseasons.

And I'm not dismissing numbers. I am saying Bortles is only better than Hoyer in volume stats and is worse in all of the efficiency stats (Passer rating, TD:INT, etc...).

And that is comparing Bortles to journeyman BRIAN HOYER.

[popanot]

I'm not ready to write off Bortles or Yeldon at this point or say their ceiling is this or that. I think they'd be even better with a good OL and coaching staff (and D). I'm not going to anoint Cousins as great, but I think his improvement shows that guys can grow and improve when you get experience and add in a good mix of players, protect well, and have a decent scheme/coaching staff (and also a decent D that doesn't kill you in score and field position). I also don't think Allen Robinson is that far off from Nuk, and Hurns is a major upgrade to Washington. I also like Greene over Shorts. I like what I see so far from Strong and hope he continues to develop. If so, I'll gladly change my mind on a WR swap.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by popanot

I'm not ready to write off Bortles or Yeldon at this point or say their ceiling is this or that. I think they'd be even better with a good OL and coaching staff (and D). I'm not going to anoint Cousins as great, but I think his improvement shows that guys can grow and improve when you get experience and add in a good mix of players, protect well, and have a decent scheme/coaching staff (and also a decent D that doesn't kill you in score and field position). I also don't think Allen Robinson is that far off from Nuk, and Hurns is a major upgrade to Washington. I also like Greene over Shorts. I like what I see so far from Strong and hope he continues to develop. If so, I'll gladly change my mind on a WR swap.

I think Bortles is much more likely to make a jump than Yelden. RBs just don't really improve. They are either good or not. Yelden is just a guy. There is just so much cheap/free depth at that position.

Bortles shows every skill you need but two; (1) decision making, and (2) accuracy. In terms of decision making, he has thrown some of the worst and most head scratching interceptions I've ever seen. However, this is an area he can improve, and it is an area that pretty much every NFL QB improves in as they get more experience and get to know an offense better. He has already improved here a lot in his 2 years (even though he threw more INTs this year than last year). But accuracy generally doesn't improve. QBs may raise their completion percentage a bit by knowing better where to throw it, but they almost never get better at their ability to throw it where they want. Bortles was a 58% passer this year. That puts him 31st among QBs and just behind Colin Kaepernick. just doesn't cut it in the current NFL. He just doesn't throw it where he wants to like a really good NFL QB. So I think the unflappable attitude, the arm, the athleticism, the solid group of WRs, and the improvement he's already shown will be somewhat offset by the inaccuracy, and he has the potential to be a good QB but never close to a great one. And I only think he becomes a good one if the Jags suddenly become a competent coaching staff. I would bet money that doesn't happen and instead a new coach is there a year from now with a new system and a future not tied to Bortles. I'd be surprised if he's a full time starter in 2018.

[barrett]

The Jags are garbage. Anyone who was fooled by the fact they have lots of high draft picks that are also young, let this be a reminder that they are awful. The TDs Bortles threw against air while trailing by 30 in the 4th quarter are vintage Bortles. He will do that enough to throw for 4000 yards and 30 TDs and convince people they are ready to take the 'jump'. They play no defense. Their HC is bad. Their QB is bad. They will stay bad for a while.

We have plenty of issues in our Franchise, and yet we are football geniuses next to them.