Official Senior Bowl Thread

[barrett]

Originally Posted by jppaul

On the flip side does focusing your best chance to get quality players into one specific need, repeatedly, to the neglect of other positions, make any more sense?

Similarly we our focusing a large portion of our cap into one area, again to the neglect of other positions.

Certainly, everybody is correct, we are not in fact the Lions. Thank you for clearing that up. All I was saying is that other teams follies may serve as educational, in the same way history is educational. A what not to do blue print, so to speak.

What teams does this saturation drafting, to the degree in which we have done, actually payoff. Didn't payoff for the Lions, didn't payoff for us, who did it pay off for? This is not a rhetorical question.

A dlineman can make a bad team better, but so can a WR, and on that i disagree with you. If you have a good Oline and a good QB, your passing offense could still suck if your recievers can't uncover. Call it something analagous to the David Carr effect, one that is applicable to WRs.

The Vikings had arguably the best d-line the year before last but becuase they had secondary problems they still couldn't stop anybody.

Why should we continue to dedicate our resources to a position, that we have already invested the majority of our best chances to get quality players, to the neglect of other positions.
That is my question.

The amount of resources previously spent is not relevant to the argument. The relevant factor is do we need to improve on the DL right now. Clearly the answer is yes.

Otherwise you could say we have put fewer resources into WR than almost any position on the team the last 4 years so we should be looking to draft WRs. But this is not relevant. You draft on what you have and what you need, not on what you allocated. Your line of reasoning is the type that led Charlie Casserly to offer up Boselli as an excuse for why he never got a decent LT (We tried previously so we get to turn our attention elsewhere).

The DL is probably our worst or 2nd worst position group along with Secondary. Both have had first day draft picks and FA money thrown their way and we remain in need of upgrading in both areas far more so than at LB or anywhere on the offense. Hopefully a DT, FS, or DE is worthy of being drafted at 15 when we hit the clock.

[jppaul]

Originally Posted by barrett

The amount of resources previously spent is not relevant to the argument. The relevant factor is do we need to improve on the DL right now. Clearly the answer is yes.

Otherwise you could say we have put fewer resources into WR than almost any position on the team the last 4 years so we should be looking to draft WRs. But this is not relevant. You draft on what you have and what you need, not on what you allocated. Your line of reasoning is the type that led Charlie Casserly to offer up Boselli as an excuse for why he never got a decent LT (We tried previously so we get to turn our attention elsewhere).

You are obviously a believer in the sunk cost rule. Since you took my argument out of context, lets do the same with yours:

That team has taken 15 straight first round d-linemen. DL is still the greatest need for that team. By your line of reasoning, keep taking the DL. Basically your line of reasoning is advocating for beating your head against a concrete wall.

Personally I'll pass, but maybe someone else is interested.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by jppaul

You are obviously a believer in the sunk cost rule. Since you took my argument out of context, lets do the same with yours:

That team has taken 15 straight first round d-linemen. DL is still the greatest need for that team. By your line of reasoning, keep taking the DL. Basically your line of reasoning is advocating for beating your head against a concrete wall.

Personally I'll pass, but maybe someone else is interested.

If you take 15 straight DL and at the end of it DL is still the worst position on your team, then DL would still clearly be in play for the 16th draft. You don't play draft slots and contracts. You evaluate how your team plays on the field and look where you need to get better.

If you look at actual play on the field, DL is one of our worst 2 position groups so it should be one of our priorities to upgrade (along with secondary). This does NOT mean we should draft a DL in the first round. It DOES mean we should not rule out drafting a DL in the first round. If it comes to our pick and a DL is the best player on our board, I would expect us to take him. If not I would expect to see a DE in the 2nd or 3rd round.

You said you had a serious question asking why we would take a DL again and this is a serious answer. Why don't you tell us a few positions that are more in need of an upgrade on our team and what direction we should be going in round 1. I'll accept safety, but I don't see anywhere else where we need help more.

[TexanJedi]

According to NFLDraftCountdown, the Texans were spotted with Clay Matthews (LB USC), Mohamed Massaquoi (WR Georgia), and Coye Francies (CB/KR San Jose St.) at the Senior Bowl. Make of that what you will.

[nunusguy]

Originally Posted by TexanJedi

According to NFLDraftCountdown, the Texans were spotted with Clay Matthews (LB USC), Mohamed Massaquoi (WR Georgia), and Coye Francies (CB/KR San Jose St.) at the Senior Bowl. Make of that what you will.

Veeery interesting. And good to know. Thanks for the info TexanJedi.
Matthews is no surprise, nor is a corner but the GA WR is intriguing ? I dunno, but you gotta think that the Texans are getting a bit uneasy about
Jacobey J., so guess that could explain their interest in a WR plus another player they are talking to who has experience as a KR (Jacobeys main job up to now) ?
BTW, just how is Clay Matthews related to Oilers/Titans HOFer Bruce ? I'm thinkin Bruce had a brother named Clay who played for the Browns, and if so that would probably make the USC LB Bruces nephew ?

[sinnister]

Originally Posted by nunusguy

Veeery interesting. And good to know. Thanks for the info TexanJedi.
Matthews is no surprise, nor is a corner but the GA WR is intriguing ? I dunno, but you gotta think that the Texans are getting a bit uneasy about
Jacobey J., so guess that could explain their interest in a WR plus another player they are talking to who has experience as a KR (Jacobeys main job up to now) ?
BTW, just how is Clay Matthews related to Oilers/Titans HOFer Bruce ? I'm thinkin Bruce had a brother named Clay who played for the Browns, and if so that would probably make the USC LB Bruces nephew ?

Bruce and Clay Matthews were brothers. I was wondering about the connection myself. Both played at USC if I remember correctly.

[painekiller]

Originally Posted by sinnister

Bruce and Clay Matthews were brothers. I was wondering about the connection myself. Both played at USC if I remember correctly.

Clay Matthews Sr played for 49ers.
His two sons Clay Jr. and Bruce both played at USC and then in the NFL.

Clay's son Clay III, was a walk on at USC and this season became a starter, and difference maker.

BTW Bruce has a son playing OC at Texas A&M.

[jppaul]

Originally Posted by barrett

If you take 15 straight DL and at the end of it DL is still the worst position on your team, then DL would still clearly be in play for the 16th draft. You don't play draft slots and contracts. You evaluate how your team plays on the field and look where you need to get better.

you don't? Seriously, Barrett? Give me a break. Another Hypo you have had the first overall selection 4 times and youve drafted all DL. Can you imagine the cap ramifications?

That is a bit extreme obviously, but you are lying to yourself if you think, that cap ramifications don't factor in.

[sinnister]

Originally Posted by jppaul

you don't? Seriously, Barrett? Give me a break. Another Hypo you have had the first overall selection 4 times and youve drafted all DL. Can you imagine the cap ramifications?

That is a bit extreme obviously, but you are lying to yourself if you think, that cap ramifications don't factor in.

Cap ramifications do factor in, and there is little doubt that NFL teams have players that are taken with low draft picks where they are making up where their cap dollars are invested; however, OL and DL are the 2 most important positions on the team. They are the building blocks of a franchise, so justifying cap space for 8-9 slots is warranted. Also, in Barretts example, although extreme, let's be real. If you took 15 straight DL, not all 15 would be there tying up cap space. The same is going to be true of us. Anthony Weaver will be gone in the near future, and possibly Travis Johnson as well. So, the future of the DL, if Raji is drafted, won't be like having all these guys plus him. Granted, it is frustrating drafting all these guys and seeing little results. I still have high hopes for Okoye......

[painekiller]

Originally Posted by barrett

If you take 15 straight DL and at the end of it DL is still the worst position on your team,

Then you have a problem with scouts, GM, the draft in general.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by painekiller

Then you have a problem with scouts, GM, the draft in general.

agreed. That was my point. The problem is not "over-drafting" the DL. It's picking the wrong players. This has nothing to do with what position you take.

This current staff has picked one DL (okoye) and the jury is still out. This one pick does not disqualify them from attempting to fix an obvious problem area.

[jppaul]

Originally Posted by barrett

If you take 15 straight DL and at the end of it DL is still the worst position on your team, then DL would still clearly be in play for the 16th draft. You don't play draft slots and contracts. You evaluate how your team plays on the field and look where you need to get better.

If you look at actual play on the field, DL is one of our worst 2 position groups so it should be one of our priorities to upgrade (along with secondary). This does NOT mean we should draft a DL in the first round. It DOES mean we should not rule out drafting a DL in the first round. If it comes to our pick and a DL is the best player on our board, I would expect us to take him. If not I would expect to see a DE in the 2nd or 3rd round.

You said you had a serious question asking why we would take a DL again and this is a serious answer. Why don't you tell us a few positions that are more in need of an upgrade on our team and what direction we should be going in round 1. I'll accept safety, but I don't see anywhere else where we need help more.

I am not saying that DL is not a need rather that you can find talent other places than the first round of the draft, and that given our track record, we would be well advised to look elsewhere.

Which is why I have been advocating for Michael Johnson in the second.

Additionally, I think our biggest need this year transcends any one position. We need an impact player, someone that comes in and makes a big splash, and the easiest area to do that is LB, which is why Vilma, Willis and Demeco were all DROY.

The value in the draft would also lie in LB at 15. I like either Maluluaga or Cushing personally. Cushing could play strongside, with Malualaga you might have to make some moves.

[Roy P]

Originally Posted by jppaul

The value in the draft would also lie in LB at 15. I like either Maluluaga or Cushing personally. Cushing could play strongside, with Malualaga you might have to make some moves.

Drafting a SAM in the 1st round is a mistake. Try to name a "difference maker" who plays that position in the NFL. I would like to add some talent at the position, but wouldn't use higher than a 3rd round pick for it.

Malualaga might add something to the defense. However, since we have Ryans, that makes even less sense than drafting a NT. Sure, you could move DeMeco to the WILL, but the GM just drafted Adibi, so why keep adding to the LB corps?

[NBT]

Because it might just work! As you say it's hard to tell this time of year. All we can do is speculate. So speculate on.

[painekiller]

Originally Posted by Roy P

Drafting a SAM in the 1st round is a mistake. Try to name a "difference maker" who plays that position in the NFL. I would like to add some talent at the position, but wouldn't use higher than a 3rd round pick for it.

Malualaga might add something to the defense. However, since we have Ryans, that makes even less sense than drafting a NT. Sure, you could move DeMeco to the WILL, but the GM just drafted Adibi, so why keep adding to the LB corps?

The evolution of positions in the NFL game is interesting, remember when the FB was the best runner in the backfield? Guys like Czonka, Harris. But the salary cap has changed everything, now the FB is a throwaway position, heck most cannot even run a pass route.

An interesting trend in college is the spread offense. And college defenses are getting smaller to deal with the spread. Now if 80% of the colleges go with the smaller quicker defense, how will that effect the drafting of defensive players? Also remember the 3-4 usually is about putting bigger guys on the field. Plus sized NTs, Plus sized DEs, plus sized Lbs. Where is the NFL going to find that player when the college go to speed defenses?

I am tired of our team following the trends, become a trail blazer, develop something unique. Make the other team react to you.

Why not bring back the 2 back sets where both guys carry the ball? Why not have two 3-gap DTs playing at the same time and both attaching the ball.

[Roy P]

Originally Posted by painekiller

I am tired of our team following the trends, become a trail blazer, develop something unique. Make the other team react to you.

.

Here's my idea. I call it the 5-1-5. The anchor is like the 3-4 in that I put a 320lb bull right on the C. I have him flanked by two 3-Techniques that are required to fire into the backfield. On the left of the line is where I have a large pass rusher that would be like Mario or Julius Peppers. On the other side, I would have a tweener who would be similar to an OLB in that he would sometimes be asked to drop in coverage on a TE or a RB. The LB is a large fellow that can play in space. Perhaps a guy who had played SS at some point before becoming 245lbs. Having 5 DL in front of him, should allow him to attack sideline to sideline. Considering the lack of LBs on the field, I'll need strong tacklers in the secondary. Since they probably won't have elite quickness to play man all day, they have to have good zone awareness and ball skills to boot. My FS will need to roam Centerfield to pick up anything that gets through. I'll have one FS who is almost a CB while the SS is almost a WLB.

Mario Williams------Amobi Okoye------BJ Raji------Darryl Richard------Cody Brown

--------------------------------------Brian Cushing
Fred Bennett -----------------------------------------------------------------Keenan Lewis
-------------------- Keith Fitzhugh------------------------Antwaun Molden
---------------------------------------C.J. Spillman

I'm not advocating that we trade DeMeco, just an idea of what a new defense would look like that was built to play against passing offenses, while still being effective vs. the run.

[Roy P]

Originally Posted by Roy P

However, since we have Ryans, that makes even less sense than drafting a NT. Sure, you could move DeMeco to the WILL, but the GM just drafted Adibi, so why keep adding to the LB corps?

There was a little sarcasm in this part of my post. I was responding to a similar "logic" for not drafting a DL.

Perhaps I'm getting more pessimistic and cynical as I go through this every year. For some reason, I'm not exceptionally fired up about many of the prospects. All I am seeing is projects and not difference makers in this group.

Raji appeared pretty impressive during the week, but in the game today, he was pretty quiet. Peria Jerry had a pretty good showing, but I'm hesitant to wanting to draft another player like Okoye or Travis Johnson. The LBs in the game were marginal (including the USC group). TE Pettigrew was lackluster.

I'm trying to formulate a My Guys list and it might be short.

WR Crabtree
WR Maclin
LB Curry
NT Raji
DT Jerry

There's my 1st round picks. If all 5 are off the board, I'm trading down if possible.

[jppaul]

Originally Posted by Roy P

There was a little sarcasm in this part of my post. I was responding to a similar "logic" for not drafting a DL.

Roy maybe i am a little slow but huh?