Official Senior Bowl Thread

[nunusguy]

Originally Posted by Roy P

Now that we have a DL coach who had Kelsay and Schobel, I wouldn't be surprised if we went after Orapko, Everette Brown, or Aaron Maybin in the 1st round.

You're suggesting that Kollar has the juice with Smith/Kubiak to induce them
to trade-up to get his man in the first round ?

[Roy P]

Originally Posted by nunusguy

You're suggesting that Kollar has the juice with Smith/Kubiak to induce them
to trade-up to get his man in the first round ?

You're suggesting that we would have to trade up.

I have to admit that the idea of Williams, Raji, Okoye, and whoever is really a nice thought.

Have I mentioned that I like Cody Brown from UConn today?

[painekiller]

Originally Posted by Roy P

Have I mentioned that I like Cody Brown from UConn today?

Hey don't steal my guy.

What guy should we take if Oher, Raji, and Brown are all sitting there at 15?

[sinnister]

Originally Posted by painekiller

Hey don't steal my guy.

What guy should we take if Oher, Raji, and Brown are all sitting there at 15?

Raji. He would be an incredible addition to the team

[mussop]

Originally Posted by painekiller

Hey don't steal my guy.

What guy should we take if Oher, Raji, and Brown are all sitting there at 15?

Thats a tough one. It would be between Oher and Raji for me and alot would have to do with the interview. I would probably go Raji because I ahve them rated pretty even but our D needs Raji more than our O needs Oher.

Also I feel like there are some OL that will be available later in the draft that have lots of potential in our ZB scheme. I dont know if there is anyone in this draft that could help us more than Raji.

[papabear]

I watched a little of practice yesterday and saw the one on one O-line vs D-line drills. Oher looked really good at times, and absolutely terrible at others. I think it was a G/C from Alabama that I noticed once or twice.

There were a couple fo defensive ends that I thought looked pretty good. A kid from Richmond and one from Hawaii. Both of them were quick off the ball and seemed like the could pull off the speed rush. No, I don't remember their names...does anyone else know anything about these guys? Maybe a later round pick who can be a pass rush specialist?

It's hard to tell much from this drill though.

[painekiller]

Originally Posted by papabear

I watched a little of practice yesterday and saw the one on one O-line vs D-line drills. Oher looked really good at times, and absolutely terrible at others. I think it was a G/C from Alabama that I noticed once or twice. That is Caldwell the OC they are working at both positiions, like all the OCs.

There were a couple fo defensive ends that I thought looked pretty good. A kid from Richmond and one from Hawaii. Both of them were quick off the ball and seemed like the could pull off the speed rush. No, I don't remember their names...does anyone else know anything about these guys? Maybe a later round pick who can be a pass rush specialist? 92 David Veikune (DL) Hawaii
95 Lawrence Sidbury (DL) Richmond
It's hard to tell much from this drill though.

Sidbury was here in Houston last week. Both of those guys will be specialist, or 3-4 guys

[papabear]

Originally Posted by painekiller

Sidbury was here in Houston last week. Both of those guys will be specialist, or 3-4 guys

That's them....if I wasn't so lazy I would have looked them up myself. Don't know much about them, but the little I saw they looked like they would either be 3-4 guys or specialist DE's.

[Roy P]

Originally Posted by painekiller

Hey don't steal my guy.

What guy should we take if Oher, Raji, and Brown are all sitting there at 15?

Your guy? Cody Brown is one of my guys.

If you are talking about Raji, then I'll concede that. I have been slow in coming around on him. When it comes to 1st round picks with guaranteed money, I get very picky. "Character" issues include things like arrests, suspensions, lack of conditioning, etc. Raji had some academic problems at BC that I'm not completely familiar with, but it is a flag. He also had some issues with his weight getting up over 360lbs. I'm sold that the talent is all there, but there are some questions about the mental and emotional.

I doubt we'll be faced with your hypothetical, but if it happened, I would go Raji because of how much he would improve Okoye, Mario, and DeMeco.

[jppaul]

Blah...Blah...I am done with first round tackles FOR THIS TEAM, we have other needs besides D-line. B.J. Raji pulled an Okoye and jumped up the charts but after 5 firsts in 6 years give me a 2nd or 3rd rounder before we have 82 % of our cap tied into the d-line.

BTW that goes for DEs out there too. Orakpo, Maybin, Johnson, and Everette Brown, NOT INTERESTED. Are we any better than the Lions, for the redundant drafting, they drafted three WR in as many years. We drafted 5 first round Dlinemen in 6 years. Fing Ridicolous. I AM DONE WITH THAT CRAP.

[nunusguy]

Originally Posted by jppaul

Blah...Blah...I am done with first round tackles FOR THIS TEAM, we have other needs besides D-line. B.J. Raji pulled an Okoye and jumped up the charts but after 5 firsts in 6 years give me a 2nd or 3rd rounder before we have 82 % of our cap tied into the d-line.

Fair point.
Lot of guys went gah-gah eyed over Okoyes Senior Bowl performance a couple years ago (apparently including Smith & Kubiak),
and 2 years out in the NFL he's been a definite flop for a #10 overall.

[papabear]

Originally Posted by nunusguy

Fair point.
Lot of guys went gah-gah eyed over Okoyes Senior Bowl performance a couple years ago (apparently including Smith & Kubiak),
and 2 years out in the NFL he's been a definite flop for a #10 overall.

I think that comment is ridiculous. Played well early in his rookie season before wearing down. Understandable for any rookie, not to mention one as young as him. He was a major disappointment this year without a doubt, but he was nicked up most of the year and was asked to play a lot of 2 gap type techniques. Not his strong suit. Will he ever be in same level at his position as AJ or Mario. I doubt it, but if your expectations for a first round pick are that he ends up being one of the top 3 or 4 guys at his position your going to be disappointed an awful lot. Hell even expecting multiple pro bowls from your first round pick is probably unrealistic.

[painekiller]

Originally Posted by nunusguy

Fair point.
Lot of guys went gah-gah eyed over Okoyes Senior Bowl performance a couple years ago (apparently including Smith & Kubiak),
and 2 years out in the NFL he's been a definite flop for a #10 overall.

Okoye played hurt this season, high ankle sprain, so he played on one leg. Plus he was being used to as a read react DT, he is a shot the gap and find the ball type. So IMO judging him a bust is unfair.

As for Raji suspension, my understanding is the school mismanaged his credits and he became ineligible. While he was away, he found out how much he missed the game and rededicated himself. Had he played last year, we would have know of him.

[Roy P]

Originally Posted by jppaul

Are we any better than the Lions, for the redundant drafting, they drafted three WR in as many years.

Going back to 2002 when they drafted Joey Harrington, they could have drafted John Henderson or Albert Haynesworth.

2003 they drafted hometown boy Charles Rogers instead of Andre Johnson. It's not that they shouldn't have drafted a WR, they just got the wrong one.

2004 they drafted Roy Williams because Rogers was not the answer. Imagine if they had had gone with Haynesworth and Andre Johnson the two previous years, they could have gotten Ben Roethlisberger in this draft.

2005 was the Mike Williams draft. This guy was considered a top pick the year prior, but simply was denied the opportunity to enter the draft. In attempt to surround the QB with weapons to make him successful, the investment in Williams was probably a reach considering his lack of another year playing. They could have gone after Senior Bowl phenom DeMarcus Ware, but that would have been silly, right? The best player at that draft slot was probably Derrick Johnson, but we also passed on him, opting to trade down.

2006 the Lions decided to forget about WRs and drafted Ernie Sims. Not a bad choice considering they passed on Derrick Johnson the year before. The option of Jay Cutler was there, but if they had drafted Big Ben in 2004, that wouldn't have been necessary. What about Combine stud Broderick Bunkley or Haloti Ngata to put next to Albert Haynesworth? I'm forgetting that Shaun Rogers was on the team, so how about CB Antonio Cromartie?

2007 Calvin Johnson was considered to be the BPA in the draft. Oakland went with Russell, so the Lions would have been thought of as crazy for not selecting the surest thing simply because they had made mistakes at the position before. Personally, I thought Adrian Peterson was the BPA, so I would have gone that route.

To re-cap the Lions 1st round draft picks could have looked like this:
2002 - DT Albert Haynesworth
2003 - WR Andre Johnson
2004 - QB Ben Roethlisberger
2005 - LB Derrick Johnson
2006 - CB Antonio Cromartie
2007 - RB Adrian Peterson

Gee, I bet Matt Millen wishes he had a time machine.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by jppaul

Blah...Blah...I am done with first round tackles FOR THIS TEAM, we have other needs besides D-line. B.J. Raji pulled an Okoye and jumped up the charts but after 5 firsts in 6 years give me a 2nd or 3rd rounder before we have 82 % of our cap tied into the d-line.

BTW that goes for DEs out there too. Orakpo, Maybin, Johnson, and Everette Brown, NOT INTERESTED. Are we any better than the Lions, for the redundant drafting, they drafted three WR in as many years. We drafted 5 first round Dlinemen in 6 years. Fing Ridicolous. I AM DONE WITH THAT CRAP.

The Lions drafting WRs has nothing to do with our team or if we should take a DL. (1) We need to draft good players. (2) If it comes down to a choice between multiple good players we need to pick the one at a position of need. Neither of these items rules out DL by any means. You don't make 1st round selections based on cap money. If you get it right and pick the best player and he happens to play DL then you figure out the cap money later (cut weaver, TJ, or both).

[papabear]

Originally Posted by jppaul

Blah...Blah...I am done with first round tackles FOR THIS TEAM, we have other needs besides D-line. B.J. Raji pulled an Okoye and jumped up the charts but after 5 firsts in 6 years give me a 2nd or 3rd rounder before we have 82 % of our cap tied into the d-line.

BTW that goes for DEs out there too. Orakpo, Maybin, Johnson, and Everette Brown, NOT INTERESTED. Are we any better than the Lions, for the redundant drafting, they drafted three WR in as many years. We drafted 5 first round Dlinemen in 6 years. Fing Ridicolous. I AM DONE WITH THAT CRAP.

Couple of things. WR is different than a defensive lineman for one main reasons. A WR will never make a bad team good. They can't do anything unless they have an offensive line that can protect the QB....and a QB to get them the ball. Same thing works on the other side of the line. We could throw out two pro bowl CB's, but if you can't get pressure on the QB or stop the run with some consistency you are still going to get picked apart at some point.

I will never have a problem picking a lineman on either side of the ball if the staff thinks they are worth it. It might not always be my favorite, and it's definitely not sexy, but the trenches are where game are won.

[jppaul]

Originally Posted by papabear

Couple of things. WR is different than a defensive lineman for one main reasons. A WR will never make a bad team good. They can't do anything unless they have an offensive line that can protect the QB....and a QB to get them the ball. Same thing works on the other side of the line. We could throw out two pro bowl CB's, but if you can't get pressure on the QB or stop the run with some consistency you are still going to get picked apart at some point.

I will never have a problem picking a lineman on either side of the ball if the staff thinks they are worth it. It might not always be my favorite, and it's definitely not sexy, but the trenches are where game are won.

On the flip side does focusing your best chance to get quality players into one specific need, repeatedly, to the neglect of other positions, make any more sense?

Similarly we our focusing a large portion of our cap into one area, again to the neglect of other positions.

Certainly, everybody is correct, we are not in fact the Lions. Thank you for clearing that up. All I was saying is that other teams follies may serve as educational, in the same way history is educational. A what not to do blue print, so to speak.

What teams does this saturation drafting, to the degree in which we have done, actually payoff. Didn't payoff for the Lions, didn't payoff for us, who did it pay off for? This is not a rhetorical question.

A dlineman can make a bad team better, but so can a WR, and on that i disagree with you. If you have a good Oline and a good QB, your passing offense could still suck if your recievers can't uncover. Call it something analagous to the David Carr effect, one that is applicable to WRs.

The Vikings had arguably the best d-line the year before last but becuase they had secondary problems they still couldn't stop anybody.

Why should we continue to dedicate our resources to a position, that we have already invested the majority of our best chances to get quality players, to the neglect of other positions.

That is my question.

[nunusguy]

Originally Posted by Roy P

You're suggesting that we would have to trade up.

If that's a question, my reply is "yes". More & more teams are going 3-4 and these tweeners are becoming a more valuable commodity every year.
I wish we had never left the 3-4, but it's typical of Kubiak being inflexible and reluctant to confront change.

[Roy P]

Originally Posted by nunusguy

If that's a question, my reply is "yes". More & more teams are going 3-4 and these tweeners are becoming a more valuable commodity every year.
I wish we had never left the 3-4, but it's typical of Kubiak being inflexible and reluctant to confront change.

Yeah, those tweeners are so easy to come by. Most people around here long for the days of Jason Babin and Antwan Peek.

[nunusguy]

Originally Posted by Roy P

Yeah, those tweeners are so easy to come by. Most people around here long for the days of Jason Babin and Antwan Peek.

Seriously that raises an question that always puzzled me ? Why did Capers have so much trouble finding a really effective, stud pass-rush OLB for
his 3-4 ?
Watching this weeks Senior-Bowl practice, there were gobs of those prospects out there in the 235-255 lb range who had the kinda quicks off the edge to play the position. And that's not even counting all of the prospects that were absent like FSUs Brown, UTs Orakpo, and undercalssmen Maybin,
and many others. It just seems to me that the front 7 in the 3-4 is easier to populate than the 4-3, and of course that's always been an argument for the scheme.
BTW, did you see that Capers is taking his 3-4 to the NFC North ?
http://www.studyofsports.com/?p=1028
We all knew big things were in store for the Packers when Mike McCarthy summarily dismissed most of his defensive staff after a disappointing 6-10 season. What few were expecting was for McCarthy to stake his, and the team’s, future on the installation of the 3-4 scheme with the hiring of Dom Capers as Defensive Coordinator.

Most younger Packers fans, myself included, have only seen the 4-3 defense played in Green Bay. This sudden change, and McCarthy’s words on the matter, are somewhat surprising considering that McCarthy will no doubt be facing pressure to take the division back next season after the collapse of the defense and special teams this season.