Official Texans vs. Raiders Game Thread, 11/17/2013

[chuck]

The Texans' irresponsible drafting and player management is going to be exposed in a serious way very soon. The team has so many needs that it will be impossible to address even a real percentage of them. They'll return one productive DL, their LBs are a horrible. The one guy who's any good can't stay on the field. They have a terrible pair of OLBs for a 3-4 team. Their secondary could and should be improved all across the board. And that's just the defense.

Tate will walk and no one knows if Arian can stay healthy so a RB is a must. Their OL blows and I don't think they'll be able to keep Wade Smith so you're looking at needing two or three starting OL. And then the most important position on the team is still a near total unknown. I like Case and I think he can play but a new coach (I'll assume just for the hell of it that Kubiak will be fired) will surely not want to go into his first year with Case at QB.

Basically the entire franchise is a total disaster and a league-wide joke.

[popanot]

Kubiak just couldn't wait to go back to his boy. You could see it a mile away just based on his presser in the beginning of the week. Schaub has royally sucked for almost a full year now and Kubiak sticks with him throughout. Keenum has a few bad quarters (with his OL sucking rotten eggs, but while the team is still in the game) and he gets yanked. I am so sick of Kubiak and McNair it makes me want to spit nails.

Man, two wildcard wins against a crap Bengals team. What a ride it's been!!! You should be proud McNair!! Maybe in another 10 years you'll reach Uncle Drayton territory in Houston lore.

[Arky]

Not Case Keenum's best game.... but nothing different from what more established players have at times.... Go check Kaepernick/Dalton/Romo/Flacco, etc. stats/box scores over the course of a season.....

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I agree that Kubes was looking for the right opportunity to get his boy in the game....
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Don't get the horniness to draft a QB with the Texans first pick I see on some of the messageboards.... I can respect it but I don't agree with it. I'd rather have a can't miss LB or OL..... The prospect of ending up with the next Geno Smith doesn't really do it for me..... Did we not learn anything from 2002?

[HPF Bob]

Basically the entire franchise is a total disaster and a league-wide joke.

No, Chuck. That sentence describes the Houston Astros and there are miles of difference between the Astros and the Texans.

The Texans were almost snakebit this year. They aren't that bad a team but need to upgrade some areas and probably change coaches because the ones they have now clearly can't get the team beyond a certain level.

Look how quickly the Chiefs turned it around in one year. Some snakebit team has that happen every year. This year, the Texans and Falcons both disintegrated but they'll be back next year. Back to the playoffs? Maybe, maybe not. But the Texans will be back next year, especially if they have the nerve to make some big changes.

[chuck]

Originally Posted by HPF Bob

No, Chuck. That sentence describes the Houston Astros and there are miles of difference between the Astros and the Texans.

You are so completely, hilariously wrong about so much that in some ways I would be disappointed if you weren't completely, hilariously wrong about this, too. Happily, I am not disappointed.

And I'll tell you honestly that your complete misreading of the respective state of each franchise really does surprise me because I know you at one time spent a great deal of time with the Astros and I assumed you still do.

The Astros have had an historically bad three year stretch. We all know that. But if you talk with anyone in professional baseball the unanimous consensus is that the team is growing from the bottom up in an impressively powerful way, and no one expects the team to be the league doormat for much longer. Me, I don't give a fck because I can't and won't root for an American League team. I do watch the Astros closely, though, and I follow professional baseball closely. The Astros have been terrible, yes, but they are far from a league-wide joke. Most baseball people are in near awe of what Luhnow has done building up the farm and stockpiling promising arms. How do you not know this? (I fully expect Crane to pull the rug out in three or four years but that's a conversation for another day.)

The Texans, on the other hand, have an owner that no one in football respects, have a head coach that will never be a head coach for another team and a general manager who will never again be a general manager. They can rely on AJ, Watt, Duane Brown. And Myers. Let's make it an even four. Every other player either sucks or won't be back or both or is an injury liability. That's it, dude. Do you want to look at who started for the Texans today and tell me that a quick turnaround is in the works? They could hire Vince Lombardi and this team would suck for another three years.

They are two and eight. This is a two and eight team. They are a disgrace and a joke. Snakebit my ass.

You are right, though, that there are miles of difference between the Astros and the Texans. One team is ascendant and the other is mired in ammonia-reeking wet Rodeo shit.

[nunusguy]

Originally Posted by chuck

They are two and eight. This is a two and eight team. They are a disgrace and a joke. Snakebit my ass.

You are right, though, that there are miles of difference between the Astros and the Texans. One team is ascendant and the other is mired in ammonia-reeking wet Rodeo shit.

Dang, the Chuckster has a serious hard-on for the Texans. Who took your Christmas candy from you last year over there on Kirby Drive boy ?
Now I don't know that much about baseball, but I do understand that the Astros are on the rise, but when an organization is rock-bottom that's usually the only way to go. Haven't they had like 2 consecutive 100-loss seasons which is pretty much in the rock-bottom category while the Texans have had 2 consecutive PO seasons ? Now this season is surprising and certainly very disappointing and not just because of the miserable 2-8 record, but it's far too soon to know if this will be a new path for even the near term or just a single-season aberration.

[nunusguy]

Running back Ben Tate had some tough words for Texans fans.

They booed so loudly during the 28-23 loss at Reliant Stadium that the Texans had to go to a silent-count on offense (something usually reserved for road games).

“These fans here in Houston are so up and down and so wishy-washy,” Tate said. “I’m just shocked at that because this organization has come a long way.

“I just feel like if you’re a true fan, you stick with the team through the tough times and we’re going through a tough time right now.”

http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans...f-texans-fans/
*****
Ben Tate is an Auburn guy, so he knows something about what "real" fans are, and I'm inclined to agree with him. I know one thing, when I've gone to games at Reliant I'm always surprised to see so many people wait until after KO to come into the stadium, and then wonder what they are thinking when they yell their azzes off when the Texans are on offense just as they do when the D is on the field. Many local fans are certainly uninformed, atleast the ones who attend the games and that's what Tate was talking about. And many cheered loudly when Matt Schaub was hurt a couple weeks ago, well that was pathetic because Schaub has been responsible for some big wins at Reliant in recent years and also along with his wife has been a solid citizen with his time and money re charitable giving here in Houston.

[HPF Bob]

Originally Posted by chuck

The Texans, on the other hand, have an owner that no one in football respects, have a head coach that will never be a head coach for another team and a general manager who will never again be a general manager.

I would wager money Rick Smith gets another GM job if the Texans let him go. And McNair is deeply respected around the league for having a relatively clean organization with few missteps.

As for Kubiak, that mini-stroke may cost him another HC gig were he to get fired. But I'd almost guarantee he'll be an OC somewhere.

You are right, though, that there are miles of difference between the Astros and the Texans. One team is ascendant and the other is mired in ammonia-reeking wet Rodeo shit.

One team can't even negotiate a ****************ing tv deal. I got to see more Texans *exhibition games* in Austin this summer than I did Astros games except when they were on the Rangers network.

One team had the league's worst hitting and the league's worst pitching so they retained the hitting coach for another year and kicked the pitching coach upstairs to assist the GM. (You can draw your Marciano analogies here).

True, they had no failures this year of the Ed Reed variety but only because they were too ****************ing cheap to sign anyone who could fail like that. Instead, they gave us cheap failures like Carlos Pena, Philip Humber and Rick Ankiel. They are currently on a 15-game losing streak they have to wait until next April to snap.

Good minor leaguers doesn't mean shit until they are winning in the major leagues. I'm sure the Texans have high praise for their practice squad players too.

No doubt the Texans are a disappointment and some of their wounds (play-calling, Marciano) are self-inflicted. But they are a disappointment because we thought they had the talent in place to win something and because they had made the playoffs two straight years. The Astros may have the talent to win in the Pacific Coast League but they are a hideous joke at the major league level. They will ascend only because enough #1 overall draft choices will eventually make them no longer a laughingstock but I've seen nothing yet to make me think they can ever reach the playoffs, much less win them.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by HPF Bob

I would wager money Rick Smith gets another GM job if the Texans let him go. And McNair is deeply respected around the league for having a relatively clean organization with few missteps.

As for Kubiak, that mini-stroke may cost him another HC gig were he to get fired. But I'd almost guarantee he'll be an OC somewhere.



One team can't even negotiate a ****************ing tv deal. I got to see more Texans *exhibition games* in Austin this summer than I did Astros games except when they were on the Rangers network.

One team had the league's worst hitting and the league's worst pitching so they retained the hitting coach for another year and kicked the pitching coach upstairs to assist the GM. (You can draw your Marciano analogies here).

True, they had no failures this year of the Ed Reed variety but only because they were too ****************ing cheap to sign anyone who could fail like that. Instead, they gave us cheap failures like Carlos Pena, Philip Humber and Rick Ankiel. They are currently on a 15-game losing streak they have to wait until next April to snap.

Good minor leaguers doesn't mean shit until they are winning in the major leagues. I'm sure the Texans have high praise for their practice squad players too.

No doubt the Texans are a disappointment and some of their wounds (play-calling, Marciano) are self-inflicted. But they are a disappointment because we thought they had the talent in place to win something and because they had made the playoffs two straight years. The Astros may have the talent to win in the Pacific Coast League but they are a hideous joke at the major league level. They will ascend only because enough #1 overall draft choices will eventually make them no longer a laughingstock but I've seen nothing yet to make me think they can ever reach the playoffs, much less win them.

As a fellow owner I would LOVE Bob McNair.

Clean organization that will never give the league a black eye...check.
Increases my share of the revenue pie...check.
Hosts great superbowls withprivate airfields for owners jets...check.
Never a threat to stop a real franchise from winning a superbowl...check.

If I was an NFL owner I'd love to have 31 Bob McNairs to compete against and would "respect" the heck out of all of them. I mean the Harlem Globetrotters respect the Generals for their effort and clean franchise.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by chuck

The Texans' irresponsible drafting and player management is going to be exposed in a serious way very soon. The team has so many needs that it will be impossible to address even a real percentage of them. They'll return one productive DL, their LBs are a horrible. The one guy who's any good can't stay on the field. They have a terrible pair of OLBs for a 3-4 team. Their secondary could and should be improved all across the board. And that's just the defense.

Tate will walk and no one knows if Arian can stay healthy so a RB is a must. Their OL blows and I don't think they'll be able to keep Wade Smith so you're looking at needing two or three starting OL. And then the most important position on the team is still a near total unknown. I like Case and I think he can play but a new coach (I'll assume just for the hell of it that Kubiak will be fired) will surely not want to go into his first year with Case at QB.

This assessment is so sad and mostly true. The team won't be exposed soon. They've been exposed.

Brooks Reed and Mercilus make me wonder what Connor Barwin's been up to lately. How disappointing is that?

Someone mentioned hubris. Perfect.

Bullock for a 5th rounder.

And I want to like Keenum. I really do. But he is a career backup. Can a new coach return this team to the playoffs next year? Absolutely. Even with Keenum. But Smith needs to go with Kubiak.

[Arky]

Originally Posted by Keith

This assessment is so sad and mostly true. The team won't be exposed soon. They've been exposed.

Brooks Reed and Mercilus make me wonder what Connor Barwin's been up to lately. How disappointing is that?

Someone mentioned hubris. Perfect.

Bullock for a 5th rounder.

And I want to like Keenum. I really do. But he is a career backup. Can a new coach return this team to the playoffs next year? Absolutely. Even with Keenum. But Smith needs to go with Kubiak.

Career backup? I think that's a little harsh after 3.5 games.... Right now, I see him as somewhere between starter and backup.... sort of a Doug Flutie type that can start for long stretches or come off the bench in a pinch. The thing about Case Keenum is his upside.... don't you think Drew Brees struggled in his early days? The way I see it, he's at least going to be a Flutie-type, best case scenario is he ends up a Drew Brees-type.....

Statistically, he's better than most QB's in the league already. Have you seen his vertical stats? In just 3.5 games, has thrown:

Passes of 20+ = 16
Passes of 40+ = 5

Compared to some others (who have been playing most of the year):

Matt Schaub (6.5 games)
Passes of 20+ = 20
Passes of 40+ = 1

Christian Ponder
Passes of 20+ = 20
Passes of 40+ = 2

RGIII
Passes of 20+ = 28
Passes of 40+ = 4

Tom Brady
Passes of 20+ = 27
Passes of 40+ = 5

Pro-rate Keenum's vertical stats over a 10 game span and he's right up there (or better than) with P Manning, Drew Brees, Mathew Stafford, i.e, the best in the league. He's thrown 8 TD's with 1 INT in his 3.5 games. Prorate that over a 16 game schedule and you get 37 TD's and 5 INT's (really good). Schaub's best year (2009), he threw 29 TD's with 15 INT's. So, in conclusion, he's not doing bad for essentially a rookie.....

I've always been a fan of the vertical game so I'm a bit biased but I think he can be a serviceable starter - in Arky's World, I'd love for him to finish out the year (with no interruptions) and perhaps be the de facto starter next year at least during what appears to be changes coming about and a shakeup in the organization...

For the record, I could care less about U of H and only saw parts of a handful of Keenum's TV games in his college days. No less than June Jones has mentioned his incredible accuracy and that's the way I saw it in the preseason - I saw a nice short and intermediate game. He was throwing perfectly-led flair passes and hitting receivers on slants over the middle. So, I'm a little confused about what has happened to this aspect of his game lately..... perhaps he's getting coached up....

[Keith]

Originally Posted by Arky

He was throwing perfectly-led flair passes and hitting receivers on slants over the middle. So, I'm a little confused about what has happened to this aspect of his game lately..... perhaps he's getting coached up....

Heh, at this point I would have to consider what sort of negative impacts the coaching or gameplanning might have on his production.

That aside, I don't think it is a fluke that he has struggled in 2nd halves... NFL teams adjust.

Originally Posted by Arky

Pro-rate Keenum's vertical stats over a 10 game span...

All of those great stats Keenum has have come from broken plays he has extended due to his healthy legs feasting on a slacking secondary that forgets to keep their man in front of them. I watch kids playing flag football learn to make this defensive adjustment, so of course pro teams can too.

And I mention "healthy legs"... a) he's still young, and b) he hasn't made it hardly a month yet. Point being, those fresh legs he has now to extend these plays may not be so fresh in December and January when it would (in theory) really count in future seasons.

Which is part of why he looks like a career backup to me and maybe Flutie is an interesting comparison. The kind of QB that could play an extended stretch of amazing football, but not a decade-long starter that the team may have an opportunity to select in April's draft.

And Brees is definitely the upside, but consider too, Brees is the huge exception to the rule. For all I know, Raider fans think UDFA McGloin is the next Tony Romo, not Case Keenum. How's that for persective?

[Arky]

Originally Posted by Keith

Heh, at this point I would have to consider what sort of negative impacts the coaching or gameplanning might have on his production.

That aside, I don't think it is a fluke that he has struggled in 2nd halves... NFL teams adjust.

But the Texans don't counter (adjust). So many times in the 2nd halves, I've seen Keenum swarmed and not a checkdown guy in sight.... I really don't think he's (Keenum) a first-half QB only - the 2nd halves have been puzzling to say the least....

All of those great stats Keenum has have come from broken plays he has extended due to his healthy legs feasting on a slacking secondary that forgets to keep their man in front of them. I watch kids playing flag football learn to make this defensive adjustment, so of course pro teams can too.

Well, we all know the deal with stats but they can't be dismissed when evaluating.... Stats are evidentiary - eyeballs fill in the rest.....

Every QB in the league is taped/filmed yet some still manage to get the job done on Sundays for all 4 quarters. At this point in time, I'm pointing the finger at the coaching for not counter-adjusting. Not so sure the problem is Keenum and I'm really not sure what "fresh legs" has to do with it. Probably helps to have "fresh legs" when you're running for your life....

And I mention "healthy legs"... a) he's still young, and b) he hasn't made it hardly a month yet. Point being, those fresh legs he has now to extend these plays may not be so fresh in December and January when it would (in theory) really count in future seasons.

Which is part of why he looks like a career backup to me and maybe Flutie is an interesting comparison. The kind of QB that could play an extended stretch of amazing football, but not a decade-long starter that the team may have an opportunity to select in April's draft.

And Brees is definitely the upside, but consider too, Brees is the huge exception to the rule. For all I know, Raider fans think UDFA McGloin is the next Tony Romo, not Case Keenum. How's that for persective?

And why can't Keenum be an exception (like Brees)? Brees has been running around in the backfield for 13 years - good thing he's still got "fresh legs". Keenum's ability to extend plays is a positive..... He's not a Cunningham/VY/RGIII/etc type, IMO.

If I was a Raider fan, I'd be thrilled. I think I heard McGloin has earned another start... This is the way stars are born (seriously)...... McGloin has certainly got the league's attention after Sunday.

Keenum may very well end up career backup or even a flash-in-the-pan. Just, some of us aren't so quick to slap the gavel down just yet. At this point in time, I'm betting a lot of offensive coordinators around the league would love to have him....

[popanot]

The frustrating part is Keenum will likely be part of this team next year whether it's in a starting role or backup role, and anyone not named Gary Kubiak knows Schaub's time is done. Keenum should be playing as much as possible in every imaginable game situation as to prepare him for next year. Kubiak's decision to put Schaub in the game was incredibly arrogant, naïve, totally uncalled for and unproductive and he should have been fired for it.

[WMH]

Originally Posted by popanot

The frustrating part is Keenum will likely be part of this team next year whether it's in a starting role or backup role, and anyone not named Gary Kubiak knows Schaub's time is done. Keenum should be playing as much as possible in every imaginable game situation as to prepare him for next year. Kubiak's decision to put Schaub in the game was incredibly arrogant, naïve, totally uncalled for and unproductive and he should have been fired for it.

I'm not so sure about that. Really depends on if there is a coaching change or not. If McNair actually pulls the trigger, and I'm still thinking he won't, Keenum being around isn't a sure thing. He's short, not all that fast, and can't read the blitz. We'll likely have a high 1 regardless, and a new regime will want new blood @ the QB spot.

[Arky]

Originally Posted by popanot

The frustrating part is Keenum will likely be part of this team next year whether it's in a starting role or backup role, and anyone not named Gary Kubiak knows Schaub's time is done. Keenum should be playing as much as possible in every imaginable game situation as to prepare him for next year. Kubiak's decision to put Schaub in the game was incredibly arrogant, naïve, totally uncalled for and unproductive and he should have been fired for it.

Yep. In this game day thread, I actually typed in an expletive (something I try to avoid) when Schaub came in. I might be the last person in Houston who was OK with Kubes coming back next year, but it was like watching someone commit career suicide. (Or, if you're into graphic movies, watching someone slit their own throat).