Do We Need a Change at HC?

[Mike]

This is an argument that whatever your opinion is, I think it can be supported, making the decision difficult.

Reasons against:

1) They did not win the close games this year. close out opponents.
2) There is a percived notion that he is not bad a$$ enough. (I doubt this is the case behind closed doors)
3) clock management and game management issues. (I think these are not as prevalent in 2009 as in the past).
4) the team has underachieved the past two years, and put on late season run to 8-8, and 2009 might be the same.
5) Inability to get AJ the ball in the close games this year.

Reasons for:
1) He inherited a pile of crap, now we have one of the best passing schemes in the NFL.
2) IMO, the talent level has improved each year.
3) Schaub while not always healthy has improved each year. I think he would even have better numbers this year with ANY rushing game. We have hardly ran the boots and play action is non-existent with lack of run game.
4) defense has improved under Frank Bush
5) With the exception of the Jets game, I think he has put the players in a position to win each game. Players win games, I think Kubes has given them the chance to win. (take away C and K Brown misques).
6) In his tenure, they might not have always played smart or clean, but I think this team NEVER lacks effort.
7) Change does not mean that there will be better results.

IMO, I voted that we keep him. Cowher is not coming here, Gruden wears out organizations and another coordinator does not equal instant success.
We are in good cap shape, seem to have drafted well in his eta and can fill in the deficient areas.

[painekiller]

Not yet, I am in favor of one more year. Cowher will set this franchise back with the install of his system, Gruden is not my favorite, he is worse than Kubiak in wanting older guys ,and not developing the younger players.

[NBT]

I think it was Bum who said, I can beat you with our'n, and I can beat you with your'n. If that doesn't mean coaching is the defining thing, I don't know what would be. Kubiak is just not going to get the job done. Why not realize that now, and go ahead and make the move? He can fall on his sword for the players all he wants to but the bottom line is he has had four years to do it, and, while we have improved, we still aren't any closer to the SB than we were.

[painekiller]

Originally Posted by NBT

I think it was Bum who said, I can beat you with our'n, and I can beat you with your'n. If that doesn't mean coaching is the defining thing, I don't know what would be. Kubiak is just not going to get the job done. Why not realize that now, and go ahead and make the move? He can fall on his sword for the players all he wants to but the bottom line is he has had four years to do it, and, while we have improved, we still aren't any closer to the SB than we were.

Bum was referring to

(referring to Don Shula) "He can take his'n and beat your'n and take your'n and beat his'n."

from Wikipedia.

[NBT]

You wouldn't think this would be true, but the coach still has to motivate his pro players just like they do in college.

[Nconroe]

And most likely the great players are motivated no matter who coach is. an inverse saying is something like the coach ain't nothing without the players. plenty of so called good coaches, SB winning, some of us like, but now looking for work because of what - bad seasons.

[mussop]

Originally Posted by NBT

I think it was Bum who said, I can beat you with our'n, and I can beat you with your'n. If that doesn't mean coaching is the defining thing, I don't know what would be. Kubiak is just not going to get the job done. Why not realize that now, and go ahead and make the move? He can fall on his sword for the players all he wants to but the bottom line is he has had four years to do it, and, while we have improved, we still aren't any closer to the SB than we were.

"There's two kinds of coaches, them that's fired and them that's gonna be fired."

[Fonz the Boss]

I was a little surprised to see that most people still want Kubiak to stay. Its going to be the same old thing people.... They cant win big games with Kubiak. I have become aware of that this season. Their record will continue to be respectable because they will win all other meaningless games.... 1-5 in the division is not acceptable. I praise Kubiak for turning this team around though. We went from a joke to respectable. Now we need someone new to take us to the promised land.

[Joshua]

Originally Posted by Fonz the Boss

I praise Kubiak for turning this team around though. We went from a joke to respectable.

This sentence reminded me of something I heard Palillo say the other day and I've been kicking it around for a while but haven't really decided on an answer to. I'm curious to see what others think.

In short, Kubiak has been given lots of props for taking the Texans out of the basement and making them average, respectable, etc. This has generally been viewed as a Herculean accomplishment. When someone called into Palillo and expressed a similar thought, Palillo's take was that this really wasn't much of an accomplishment. While he said it in passing and didn't really go into detail, the jist of his comment was that taking a bad team and simply transforming them into an average team can generally be done by anyone but the most incompetent (particularly with 4 years to do it with). It is getting over the hump from average to good where a person earns his keep. This got me to thinking about it and I wonder whether going from 2-14 to 8-8 is as difficult an accomplishment as we may consider it. Thoughts?

[HPF Bob]

I'll ask Dom Capers and get back to you on that.

[idymoe]

Originally Posted by NBT

I think it was Bum who said, I can beat you with our'n, and I can beat you with your'n. If that doesn't mean coaching is the defining thing, I don't know what would be. Kubiak is just not going to get the job done. Why not realize that now, and go ahead and make the move? He can fall on his sword for the players all he wants to but the bottom line is he has had four years to do it, and, while we have improved, we still aren't any closer to the SB than we were.

The quote was by Bum, but he wasn't talking about himself. He was talking about Bear Bryant. He said, "he could take his'n and beat your'n, or he could take your'n and beat his'n."

By the way, if you don't think we have a way better team than 4 years ago, then I don't know what to say.

[NBT]

Right it was Bear Bryant, and my intent was to speak to the way some coaches get the utmost out of their players, and some just don't. Up to now Kubes has not.

Four games better is not the playoffs, and that is what this whole town is thirsting for.

[painekiller]

Originally Posted by NBT

Right it was Bear Bryant, and my intent was to speak to the way some coaches get the utmost out of their players, and some just don't. Up to now Kubes has not.

Four games better is not the playoffs, and that is what this whole town is thirsting for.

please check out my post

Bum was talking about Don Shula. Not Bear Bryant.

My reason for voting in favor of Kubiak for one more year is if you go back through the season, we are only a handful of plays going in the other direction from being a top 5 team record wise.

I fear changing HC would mean a step back for a year or two, something none of us wants to do again.

Also if the team adds 3 new starters in the next draft that upgrades us like Cushing did, we would have to be a playoff team.... don't we?

[barrett]

Originally Posted by painekiller

please check out my post

Bum was talking about Don Shula. Not Bear Bryant.

My reason for voting in favor of Kubiak for one more year is if you go back through the season, we are only a handful of plays going in the other direction from being a top 5 team record wise.

I fear changing HC would mean a step back for a year or two, something none of us wants to do again.

Also if the team adds 3 new starters in the next draft that upgrades us like Cushing did, we would have to be a playoff team.... don't we?

A few thoughts.

How do we make those "handful of plays" next year with the same crew in key positions. An NFL team has an identity and a culture. Our team is an offensive team and there are only two places from which we can change the culture of our team, QB and Head Coach. To me, you can't have two guys deciding our fate who have never suceeded in their current jobs. And since replacing Schaub is equal to a do over, I think the easier switch is Kubiak.

Many teams change head coaches, and very few step back (unless there is a rebuilding goal). Many coaches like Dungy and Gruden stepped in and pushed there teams over the top. If you hire the right coach, nothing says you are going to step back a year or two.

How are we supposed pick up 3 guys in the draft that upgrade us like Cushing did?

Kubiak is great from Monday to Saturday, but he is a bad gameday coach. I just don't see this changing for him with on the job training. I think he'll leave Houston unsuccessful and it will be a few years of play calling as an OC before he works out the kinks and truly settles in as a Head Coach. Either way he helped move our franchise forward and I am grateful for that. I just think he has taken us as far as he is going to.

[idymoe]

Originally Posted by painekiller

please check out my post

Bum was talking about Don Shula. Not Bear Bryant.

Very interesting. The page I referenced when I googled "Bum Phillips Quotes" is http://www.coachqte.com/phillips.html . Also, the reference in Wikipedia naming Don Shula was not there, because I read that page also, at the time. Did you add that by any chance?
I did find another page that referenced Shula. Bum could have certainly used the same quote describing different coaches that he admired.
Chronologically, he probably said it about Bryant first, then Shula. I can't say I absolutely remember him saying it about Bryant, but it seems like it. I was absolutely sure he wasn't talking about himself.

[HPF Bob]

Originally Posted by idymoe

The quote was by Bum, but he wasn't talking about himself. He was talking about Bear Bryant. He said, "he could take his'n and beat your'n, or he could take your'n and beat his'n."

By the way, if you don't think we have a way better team than 4 years ago, then I don't know what to say.

He might have said it about Bear Bryant (he was an assistant for him at one point), but the quote came from Bum about Don Shula. He was noting that Shula had won the Super Bowl with a rush-oriented offense in the early 70s and had converted the Dolphins to a pass-happy offense by the late 70s. He said this before Marino and the "Marks Brothers" too.

[HPF Bob]

Rumors out of Dallas are that Jerry Jones wants to hire Shanahan before the rival Redskins do and that the Texans are also interested. That's intriguing in that Shanahan replaced Wade Phillips as head coach in Denver way back when.

However, I think this is disinformation to try to give Shanahan greater contract leverage and probably sources back to his agent. Create competition and it drives up the price. Plus, I think McNair is smart enough to know that if he hires Shanahan, all he is getting is Kubiak with a bigger ego. It won't solve one issue on the field. Shanahan can't help our defense and he also is prone to cutesy plays just like his old OC is.