Official Texans vs. Raiders Game Thread, 11/17/2013

[HPF Bob]

Originally Posted by chuck

The Texans, on the other hand, have an owner that no one in football respects, have a head coach that will never be a head coach for another team and a general manager who will never again be a general manager.

I would wager money Rick Smith gets another GM job if the Texans let him go. And McNair is deeply respected around the league for having a relatively clean organization with few missteps.

As for Kubiak, that mini-stroke may cost him another HC gig were he to get fired. But I'd almost guarantee he'll be an OC somewhere.

You are right, though, that there are miles of difference between the Astros and the Texans. One team is ascendant and the other is mired in ammonia-reeking wet Rodeo shit.

One team can't even negotiate a ****************ing tv deal. I got to see more Texans *exhibition games* in Austin this summer than I did Astros games except when they were on the Rangers network.

One team had the league's worst hitting and the league's worst pitching so they retained the hitting coach for another year and kicked the pitching coach upstairs to assist the GM. (You can draw your Marciano analogies here).

True, they had no failures this year of the Ed Reed variety but only because they were too ****************ing cheap to sign anyone who could fail like that. Instead, they gave us cheap failures like Carlos Pena, Philip Humber and Rick Ankiel. They are currently on a 15-game losing streak they have to wait until next April to snap.

Good minor leaguers doesn't mean shit until they are winning in the major leagues. I'm sure the Texans have high praise for their practice squad players too.

No doubt the Texans are a disappointment and some of their wounds (play-calling, Marciano) are self-inflicted. But they are a disappointment because we thought they had the talent in place to win something and because they had made the playoffs two straight years. The Astros may have the talent to win in the Pacific Coast League but they are a hideous joke at the major league level. They will ascend only because enough #1 overall draft choices will eventually make them no longer a laughingstock but I've seen nothing yet to make me think they can ever reach the playoffs, much less win them.

[barrett]

It's tough for the general fan base to be well informed when you don't have a half decent reporter covering the team. Nothing gets written but puff pieces for 90% of the year, even at 2-8.

As for real fans not booing, I see both sides of that one.

But maybe Tate should be more focused on holding onto the ball and less focused on fan response.

[popanot]

What McNair does this offseason will tell me all I need to know about this franchise. If McNair can't recognize the fact Kubiak has lost the team and keeps him and his boy-toy around for another year, it will show me he's perfectly fine with mediocrity and his team will NEVER win big.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by HPF Bob

I would wager money Rick Smith gets another GM job if the Texans let him go. And McNair is deeply respected around the league for having a relatively clean organization with few missteps.

As for Kubiak, that mini-stroke may cost him another HC gig were he to get fired. But I'd almost guarantee he'll be an OC somewhere.



One team can't even negotiate a ****************ing tv deal. I got to see more Texans *exhibition games* in Austin this summer than I did Astros games except when they were on the Rangers network.

One team had the league's worst hitting and the league's worst pitching so they retained the hitting coach for another year and kicked the pitching coach upstairs to assist the GM. (You can draw your Marciano analogies here).

True, they had no failures this year of the Ed Reed variety but only because they were too ****************ing cheap to sign anyone who could fail like that. Instead, they gave us cheap failures like Carlos Pena, Philip Humber and Rick Ankiel. They are currently on a 15-game losing streak they have to wait until next April to snap.

Good minor leaguers doesn't mean shit until they are winning in the major leagues. I'm sure the Texans have high praise for their practice squad players too.

No doubt the Texans are a disappointment and some of their wounds (play-calling, Marciano) are self-inflicted. But they are a disappointment because we thought they had the talent in place to win something and because they had made the playoffs two straight years. The Astros may have the talent to win in the Pacific Coast League but they are a hideous joke at the major league level. They will ascend only because enough #1 overall draft choices will eventually make them no longer a laughingstock but I've seen nothing yet to make me think they can ever reach the playoffs, much less win them.

As a fellow owner I would LOVE Bob McNair.

Clean organization that will never give the league a black eye...check.
Increases my share of the revenue pie...check.
Hosts great superbowls withprivate airfields for owners jets...check.
Never a threat to stop a real franchise from winning a superbowl...check.

If I was an NFL owner I'd love to have 31 Bob McNairs to compete against and would "respect" the heck out of all of them. I mean the Harlem Globetrotters respect the Generals for their effort and clean franchise.

[chuck]

I'll admit to being inconsistent in that I place an enormous amount of blame on McNair for the state of the organization while ignoring Crane's many successive missteps in my evaluation of the Astros.

But the organization of football and baseball teams is totally different. You know this as well as I do so I'm not really sure why you're arguing with me. You're free to think that the Texans are closer to being good than I do and my general pessimism is well known around here so maybe you're right. I would love the team to go 14-2 next year under a new coach. I don't see it but who knows. Yeah, I know, the Chiefs. Look, the Chiefs sent more guys to the Pro Bowl last year than the number of games they won. They had plenty of talent. I don't see the Texans in the same place right now ready for an immediate turnaround.

But again, if you were to get a consensus of football people and baseball people on the state of each respective organization I am quite sure that the football people would stress the concerning problems that the Texans have and the baseball people would stress the impressive strengthening of the Astros' farm and the quality of the FO. I don't mean to make light of your situation but no one cares that you can't watch the games in Austin. That has no meaning to anyone evaluating the possibility of future success, not at this point. If Crane spends three years in television wilderness (and he might) that will surely begin to impact the team's ability to sign free agents but I don't see him signing any real free agent in the next decade tv deal or no.

They may lose 100 games again next year but the Astros have a solid plan that has the respect of everyone watching them. The Texans are completely and listlessly adrift. That could not be more plain.

Baseball's better on the radio anyway.

[Warren]

Tate said. “I’m just shocked at that because this organization has come a long way."

Really? At 2-8? With an 8-game losing streak, something even the horrific 2005 team managed to avoid? If anything, this organization has come full circle.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by chuck

The Texans' irresponsible drafting and player management is going to be exposed in a serious way very soon. The team has so many needs that it will be impossible to address even a real percentage of them. They'll return one productive DL, their LBs are a horrible. The one guy who's any good can't stay on the field. They have a terrible pair of OLBs for a 3-4 team. Their secondary could and should be improved all across the board. And that's just the defense.

Tate will walk and no one knows if Arian can stay healthy so a RB is a must. Their OL blows and I don't think they'll be able to keep Wade Smith so you're looking at needing two or three starting OL. And then the most important position on the team is still a near total unknown. I like Case and I think he can play but a new coach (I'll assume just for the hell of it that Kubiak will be fired) will surely not want to go into his first year with Case at QB.

This assessment is so sad and mostly true. The team won't be exposed soon. They've been exposed.

Brooks Reed and Mercilus make me wonder what Connor Barwin's been up to lately. How disappointing is that?

Someone mentioned hubris. Perfect.

Bullock for a 5th rounder.

And I want to like Keenum. I really do. But he is a career backup. Can a new coach return this team to the playoffs next year? Absolutely. Even with Keenum. But Smith needs to go with Kubiak.

[HPF Bob]

Originally Posted by popanot

What McNair does this offseason will tell me all I need to know about this franchise. If McNair can't recognize the fact Kubiak has lost the team and keeps him and his boy-toy around for another year, it will show me he's perfectly fine with mediocrity and his team will NEVER win big.

This is true. He cleaned house after the 2-14 season of 2005. This time, he's spent more and has higher expectations. The question may be whether the housecleaning comes this winter or next. I expect Smith to survive. I don't think Kubiak or Schaub will but it could be 2015, not 2014 when the changes are made.

[HPF Bob]

If the Astros were an NFL team, they'd be the Jacksonville Jaguars, complete with a midget as their best player. The Jags throw tarps over half their stadium rather than try to attract fans with better talent. The Astros have taken to lying about attendance figures to pretend they have fans.

Mike Brown's cheapness forced the NFL to put in a salary floor. Jim Crane's may force MLB to do the same thing.

[chuck]

Originally Posted by HPF Bob

Jim Crane's may force MLB to do the same thing.

That would be fine with me. It's obvious he's cheapskating it because he has an enormous amount of debt and is happy to rake in the money that the league gives him while fielding a team with a $20MM payroll. This will become clear to most people when he starts to let good, arb-eligible players go via trade. We're a couple of years away from that yet though.

[popanot]

Originally Posted by HPF Bob

This is true. He cleaned house after the 2-14 season of 2005. This time, he's spent more and has higher expectations. The question may be whether the housecleaning comes this winter or next. I expect Smith to survive. I don't think Kubiak or Schaub will but it could be 2015, not 2014 when the changes are made.

And therein lies the problem. If McNair sticks with the current regime for another season it will prove to me he's more committed to taking care of his good 'ol boys rather than being committed to doing what's right for the franchise and reaching the pinnacle. In addition, it will show me he lacks the vision to see the cesspool his team has become and what needs to be done to move the franchise forward. I can see it now because it's so typical of what he's let happen to date... He'll keep Kubiak and crew another year, they'll get back to roughly .500 football (how can they be any worse than this year) and Billy Bob will proclaim to the world all is good in Texans Nation and we're making strides to improvement. Frickin gag me!!! McNair's the only one on the entire planet that thinks he has the second coming of Bill Walsh at HC.

I don't know what's worse, having a meddlesome owner or a wallflower owner. I'm starting to think the latter is worse. Bud Adams never won the big one and for the most part I couldn't stand him, but at least I could tell he was trying and passionate about his team. Hard to say McNair is passionate about anything right now other than his good 'ol boy network, back-slapping the other owners, and making tons of money.

[chuck]

McNair called a meeting of the minority owners and apparently the consensus is that Kubiak has to go.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by HPF Bob

This is true. He cleaned house after the 2-14 season of 2005. This time, he's spent more and has higher expectations. The question may be whether the housecleaning comes this winter or next. I expect Smith to survive. I don't think Kubiak or Schaub will but it could be 2015, not 2014 when the changes are made.

He did not clean house in 2005. He almost cleaned house. But he made sure the worst special teams coach in the league survived a regime change for purely personal reasons. That is bad business no matter what business you are in.

[sinnister]

Kubiak has to go, as well as Schaub and Marciano. Since I said Schaub, Brice MCCain needs to go also. I am starting to watch college games just for the purpose of next years pick, and I hope it very high......And I am praying they don't blow it.

[Nconroe]

Originally Posted by HPF Bob

This is true. He cleaned house after the 2-14 season of 2005. This time, he's spent more and has higher expectations. The question may be whether the housecleaning comes this winter or next. I expect Smith to survive. I don't think Kubiak or Schaub will but it could be 2015, not 2014 when the changes are made.

I'm hoping Kubiak and Schaub, and both are nice guys, are both gone at the end of this 2013 season , early January, 2014 would be ok. sooner, not latter. And best of luck to them in future.

I think Keenum could develop further, as to handle blitzes better, quicker releases at times, given time seems some good potential there.

Turnovers and a few plays are what have done in Texans this year, repeatedly in these close losses.

Tate still has four cracked ribs, bound to hurt sometimes, likely he should be resting.

It was nice to see a good FG and a ST return for touchdown for a nice change in those areas.

Somehow Texans are 101/2 point favorites over Jags this coming weekend.

[popanot]

Originally Posted by chuck

McNair called a meeting of the minority owners and apparently the consensus is that Kubiak has to go.

Where did you see this? I hope it's true and they really put extreme pressure on McNair, but for now, I'll have to proceed with the "I'll believe it when I see it" mindset. If they're going to do it, just do it now. At least that will assure us of no more Schaub and show signs they're moving forward again by offsetting Kubiak's idiotic move this week.

[Arky]

Originally Posted by Keith

This assessment is so sad and mostly true. The team won't be exposed soon. They've been exposed.

Brooks Reed and Mercilus make me wonder what Connor Barwin's been up to lately. How disappointing is that?

Someone mentioned hubris. Perfect.

Bullock for a 5th rounder.

And I want to like Keenum. I really do. But he is a career backup. Can a new coach return this team to the playoffs next year? Absolutely. Even with Keenum. But Smith needs to go with Kubiak.

Career backup? I think that's a little harsh after 3.5 games.... Right now, I see him as somewhere between starter and backup.... sort of a Doug Flutie type that can start for long stretches or come off the bench in a pinch. The thing about Case Keenum is his upside.... don't you think Drew Brees struggled in his early days? The way I see it, he's at least going to be a Flutie-type, best case scenario is he ends up a Drew Brees-type.....

Statistically, he's better than most QB's in the league already. Have you seen his vertical stats? In just 3.5 games, has thrown:

Passes of 20+ = 16
Passes of 40+ = 5

Compared to some others (who have been playing most of the year):

Matt Schaub (6.5 games)
Passes of 20+ = 20
Passes of 40+ = 1

Christian Ponder
Passes of 20+ = 20
Passes of 40+ = 2

RGIII
Passes of 20+ = 28
Passes of 40+ = 4

Tom Brady
Passes of 20+ = 27
Passes of 40+ = 5

Pro-rate Keenum's vertical stats over a 10 game span and he's right up there (or better than) with P Manning, Drew Brees, Mathew Stafford, i.e, the best in the league. He's thrown 8 TD's with 1 INT in his 3.5 games. Prorate that over a 16 game schedule and you get 37 TD's and 5 INT's (really good). Schaub's best year (2009), he threw 29 TD's with 15 INT's. So, in conclusion, he's not doing bad for essentially a rookie.....

I've always been a fan of the vertical game so I'm a bit biased but I think he can be a serviceable starter - in Arky's World, I'd love for him to finish out the year (with no interruptions) and perhaps be the de facto starter next year at least during what appears to be changes coming about and a shakeup in the organization...

For the record, I could care less about U of H and only saw parts of a handful of Keenum's TV games in his college days. No less than June Jones has mentioned his incredible accuracy and that's the way I saw it in the preseason - I saw a nice short and intermediate game. He was throwing perfectly-led flair passes and hitting receivers on slants over the middle. So, I'm a little confused about what has happened to this aspect of his game lately..... perhaps he's getting coached up....

[Warren]

Originally Posted by popanot

Where did you see this? I hope it's true and they really put extreme pressure on McNair, but for now, I'll have to proceed with the "I'll believe it when I see it" mindset. If they're going to do it, just do it now. At least that will assure us of no more Schaub and show signs they're moving forward again by offsetting Kubiak's idiotic move this week.

https://twitter.com/johngranato/stat...30083757256704

The final call is still McNair's, though.

[HPF Bob]

Two points:

1) McNair is not going to fire Kubiak in mid-season weeks after he suffered a stroke. That would look cruel and might even start a lawsuit.

2) Do we really want to see Wade Phillips coaching again or even have a chance to take the reigns in 2014? If we give Wade an interim HC job for the rest of the season, there will be a push to give him a chance over an entire season. I don't want to see that.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by Arky

He was throwing perfectly-led flair passes and hitting receivers on slants over the middle. So, I'm a little confused about what has happened to this aspect of his game lately..... perhaps he's getting coached up....

Heh, at this point I would have to consider what sort of negative impacts the coaching or gameplanning might have on his production.

That aside, I don't think it is a fluke that he has struggled in 2nd halves... NFL teams adjust.

Originally Posted by Arky

Pro-rate Keenum's vertical stats over a 10 game span...

All of those great stats Keenum has have come from broken plays he has extended due to his healthy legs feasting on a slacking secondary that forgets to keep their man in front of them. I watch kids playing flag football learn to make this defensive adjustment, so of course pro teams can too.

And I mention "healthy legs"... a) he's still young, and b) he hasn't made it hardly a month yet. Point being, those fresh legs he has now to extend these plays may not be so fresh in December and January when it would (in theory) really count in future seasons.

Which is part of why he looks like a career backup to me and maybe Flutie is an interesting comparison. The kind of QB that could play an extended stretch of amazing football, but not a decade-long starter that the team may have an opportunity to select in April's draft.

And Brees is definitely the upside, but consider too, Brees is the huge exception to the rule. For all I know, Raider fans think UDFA McGloin is the next Tony Romo, not Case Keenum. How's that for persective?