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  #1  
Old 08-06-2012, 09:41 PM
Nconroe Nconroe is offline
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Default replacement refs

Hmm, watching some of HOF game, I thought while replacement refs had some moments , overall did ok.

Game flowed ok and I didn't see play get out of control.

Not really sure how far apart regular refs are in negotiating their new deal.

With all the money in NFL and our expectations for refs to get it right , hopefully they get a fair deal worked out soon, before regular season begins.

Not worried though.
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  #2  
Old 08-13-2012, 01:27 PM
WMH WMH is offline
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Haven't watched a ton, just the HOF and Texans....but from what I have seen, if someone hadn't told me the regulars were in a lock out, I'm not sure I would have noticed.
Have they missed some calls....sure.
Do the regulars miss some calls.....sure.

I thought one of the THREE calls against Ball on that TD drive was a little bush league. But that happens. None of the others really sticks out.

Deadlines spur action. I will be SHOCKED if this isn't worked out prior to 9/8. In the event it isn't, I'm thinking they will be just fine.
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  #3  
Old 08-13-2012, 05:47 PM
HPF Bob HPF Bob is offline
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I think the big difference you'll see is that these refs are more likely to let the players play. I'm tired of the "he hit him too hard" personal fouls and the fouls about "hitting the QB in the head or in the knees or anywhere in between as long as the QB's last name isn't Schaub" rule.

Of course, I haven't seen one of those critical "he didn't complete the catch because he momentarily juggled the ball while shaking his booty at the cheerleader 20 seconds later" replay reversals with these guys yet either.

I think right now the league just wants as little attention on the refs as possible.
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Old 08-20-2012, 03:12 PM
WMH WMH is offline
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Default Bob McNair on replacement refs: “I can’t see any difference”

Imagine that, one of the owners from one of the more profitable teams comes to the defense of the replacement refs...... Such media posturing!

Have to admit, I still don't think I would know the difference between the two if no one was blasing them after every game. I would have thought that was them bashing the regulars........

From PFT:

If the NFL’s regular officials won’t get back to work until the NFL owners agree to pay them more, then they may remain locked out for a long time.

That’s what Texans owner Bob McNair suggested when he, along with NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell, talked about the officials lockout on CNBC’s Squawk Box. McNair said he hasn’t noticed an increase in bad calls this preseason and doesn’t believe the replacement officials are any threat to player safety.

“We have complaints, it doesn’t matter who’s officiating,” McNair said. “And we look back at it as to those calls that we think were bad calls, and we don’t have any more now than we had before. Now, clearly the officials that we have now are not as good professionally as the ones we’ve had, otherwise we would have had the others all along. But in terms of the impact on the game, I’ve been watching it and frankly I can’t see any difference. We have the same situation — we have some calls we don’t like, we have some that should have been made that weren’t made, but we don’t have any more, and the players are just as well protected. So I don’t think that safety is an issue at all.”

Goodell added that when the NFL last used replacement officials, in 2001, they called fewer penalties and got good reviews from players, coaches and fans. Although Goodell and the owners are paying lip service to the belief that the locked-out officials are the best in the business, and that the NFL wants to have the best officials on the field, no one from the ownership side seems overly concerned about the consequences of the lockout.
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  #5  
Old 09-02-2012, 05:56 PM
painekiller painekiller is offline
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The Thursday night game was the worse officiated game I have ever seen. Get the real guys back in.
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Old 09-24-2012, 11:00 PM
Nconroe Nconroe is offline
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Man, did Green Bay just get screwed royally by these refs. What an embarrassmenr to the League. And after review. Just incredible.
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  #7  
Old 09-24-2012, 11:19 PM
chuck chuck is offline
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The owners disgust me.
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  #8  
Old 09-25-2012, 09:44 AM
Joe Joe Joe Joe is offline
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I can see the bad call getting missed in real time. The fact that the replay guy missed it is hard to accept.

Edit...So I am hearing that simultaneous catch is not a review-able call. Bad call on the field. Bad rule if it is true that simultaneous catch can't be reviewed.

Last edited by Joe Joe; 09-25-2012 at 10:12 AM.
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  #9  
Old 09-25-2012, 11:57 AM
painekiller painekiller is offline
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The replacement refs have been a joke, time to get the real guys back. In my 40+ years of watching football that is the 2nd worse call that I have seen, Mike Renfro's catch in the endzone against Pittsburgh and yes I am biased and still pi$$ed.
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  #10  
Old 09-25-2012, 12:55 PM
Warren Warren is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Joe View Post
Edit...So I am hearing that simultaneous catch is not a review-able call. Bad call on the field. Bad rule if it is true that simultaneous catch can't be reviewed.
I think ESPN said that, but it's wrong. A simulteaneous catch is reviewable; the offensive pass interference non-call was not. Here's the rule:

Rule 15, Sec. 9
Reviewable Plays. The Replay System will cover the following play situations only:
(a) Plays governed by Sideline, Goal Line, End Zone, and End Line:
1. Scoring plays, including a runner breaking the plane of the goal line.
2. Pass complete/incomplete/intercepted at sideline, goal line, end zone, and end line.
3. Runner/receiver in or out of bounds.
4. Recovery of loose ball in or out of bounds.
(b) Passing plays:
1. Pass ruled complete/incomplete/intercepted in the field of play.
2. Touching of a forward pass by an ineligible receiver.
3. Touching of a forward pass by a defensive player.
4. Quarterback (Passer) forward pass or fumble.
5. Illegal forward pass beyond the line of scrimmage or from behind the line after the ball has been beyond the line.
6. Illegal forward pass after change of possession.
7. Forward or backward pass thrown from behind line of scrimmage.
(c) Other reviewable plays:
1. Runner ruled not down by defensive contact.
2. Runner ruled down by defensive contact when the recovery of a fumble by an opponent or a teammate occurs in the
action that happens following the fumble.
3. Runner ruled out of bounds when the recovery of a fumble by an opponent or a teammate occurs in the action that
happens following the fumble.
4. Ruling of incomplete pass when the recovery of a passer’s fumble, or the recovery of a backward pass, by an
opponent or a teammate occurs in the action following the fumble or backward pass.
5. Ruling of a loose ball out of bounds when it is recovered in the field of play by an opponent or a teammate in the
action after the ball hits the ground.
Note 1: If the ruling of down by contact, out of bounds, or incomplete pass is changed, the ball belongs to the recovering
player at the spot of the recovery of the fumble, and any advance is nullified. If the ball goes out of bounds in an end zone,
the result of the play will be either a touchback or a safety.
Note 2: If the Referee does not have indisputable visual evidence as to which player recovered the loose ball, the ruling on the
field will stand.
Note 3: This does not apply to complete/incomplete passes, or the ruling of forward progress.
6. Forward progress with respect to a first down.
7. Touching of a kick.
8. A Field-goal or Try attempt that crosses below or above the crossbar, inside or outside the uprights when it is lower
than the top of the uprights, or touches anything.
9. Number of players on the field at the snap.
10. Illegal forward handoff.
11. A loose ball in play striking a video board, guide wire, sky cam, or any other object.
Note: Non-reviewable plays include but are not limited to:
1. Status of the clock
2. Proper down
3. Penalty administration
4. Runner ruled down by defensive contact (not involving fumbles)
5. Forward progress not relating to first down or goal line
6. Recovery of a loose ball that does not involve a boundary line or the end zone.
7. Field-goal or Try attempts that cross above either upright without touching anything.
8. Inadvertent Whistle


Here's the simultaneous catch rule:

Rule 8, Sec. 1, Art. 3, Simultaneous Catch. If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control. If the ball is muffed after simultaneous touching by two such players, all the players of the passing team become eligible to catch the loose ball.
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  #11  
Old 09-25-2012, 01:21 PM
barrett barrett is offline
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I read this morning that a simulteaneous catch in the endzone is reviewable, but not outside the endzone.

The NFL has a lot of screwy rules related to replay so they don't hurt the refs feelings (like not reviewing FGs over the post, doing the replay under a hood instead of in the booth with 10 large HD TVs, etc...). Part-time refs are likely not going to know those rules. It is one of the reasons it is amazing the NFL rolled the dice for so long with these guys. They have more difficult rules than any league.

It would be great if Goodell stared down the stars of the NFL and won, but then was cut down to size by some part-time little guys like the officials. I just hope the officials don't see last night and really dig in because they have public outcry on their side now.
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  #12  
Old 09-25-2012, 01:26 PM
barrett barrett is offline
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And this from the NFL today...

Quote:
The NFL said Tuesday that Seattle's last-second touchdown pass should not have been overturned -- but conceded Seahawks receiver Golden Tate should have been called for offensive pass interference before the catch.
So in other words, none of us saw what we saw.

Also, Pete Carrol is taking the high road as usual.

Quote:
Pete Carroll said he understands why there is so much outrage about the call that awarded Tate a touchdown. But he said the call ruling it a simultaneous catch, which awards the reception to the offense, was correct.
If there was ever a time for the "we don't make the calls, we just control what we can" line, it was right here for Carrol. Or even a complete dodge and "I'm just proud of our guys for never giving up." Instead he defends the call because it happened for his team.
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  #13  
Old 09-25-2012, 03:04 PM
HPF Bob HPF Bob is offline
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There's no doubt that the quality of officiating has suffered but I think what has happened is that certain pro-union voices are trying to make every call seem like the worst call ever because they want public opinion to be so anti-replacement that the perception will be the NFL is turning off fans when, in reality, the fans are much happier watching football with replacement refs than watching no NFL football because of a lockout/strike on the refs.

The NFL has all the leverage here (as they did with the players) so the only thing the pro-union folks can do is hyperventilate about every questionable call to the point that they think they can force a settlement.

All in all, I think the refs have done ok with what they have to work with but they obviously aren't the real refs. I go back to botched call after botched call by the *real* union refs I saw last year and I ask "what's their excuse"?

If the baggage-handlers at the airport go on strike and the replacements break a mirror in your luggage, you might get miffed or you might just accept that it is better than having your baggage left on the tarmac because there was nobody there to put it on the plane.
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  #14  
Old 09-25-2012, 07:08 PM
Nconroe Nconroe is offline
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The owners locked out refs even though refs said they'd work under old agreement while negotiating new contract.

The problem in addition to fill in refs have lost control of players and coaches is that team win loss record now impacted.

It was several horrible calls without correction last night, no pro union spin needed.

Games are like 45 min longer with repl refs.

Guys getting hurt due to lack of control, we are lucky Schaub wasn't hurt worse.

Atleast some negotation finally going last four days even though this has been a known problem for a year.

I like fairness and truth by all, don't think league giving us that.

Tv money drives league profits so owners don't have all the power.
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  #15  
Old 09-26-2012, 12:03 AM
Arky Arky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HPF Bob View Post
There's no doubt that the quality of officiating has suffered but I think what has happened is that certain pro-union voices are trying to make every call seem like the worst call ever because they want public opinion to be so anti-replacement that the perception will be the NFL is turning off fans when, in reality, the fans are much happier watching football with replacement refs than watching no NFL football because of a lockout/strike on the refs.

The NFL has all the leverage here (as they did with the players) so the only thing the pro-union folks can do is hyperventilate about every questionable call to the point that they think they can force a settlement.

All in all, I think the refs have done ok with what they have to work with but they obviously aren't the real refs. I go back to botched call after botched call by the *real* union refs I saw last year and I ask "what's their excuse"?

If the baggage-handlers at the airport go on strike and the replacements break a mirror in your luggage, you might get miffed or you might just accept that it is better than having your baggage left on the tarmac because there was nobody there to put it on the plane.
Ya, I agree with most of this.

So far IMO, the replacement refs have been doing a good job. When I see flubbed calls, delays in the game, etc, I accept it the same way I would tolerate a new employee as he/she learns the ropes - OJT. I'm pretty sure these fellas are trying the best they can. Ideally, the situation with the real refs will work itself out sooner rather than later but if it doesn't, I expect the replacements to get somewhat better as the season progresses.

As far as the MNF game goes, I had Seattle in my pickem leagues, so I thought it was a good call . J/k, it was a lousy call and should have been negated by the offensive PI. I will say, shame on Green Bay for playing like crap most of the game and letting it come down to that one play. Many, many plays in the game where they could've made a difference.... Many times in the past I've seen a close game decided by a player making a mistake (GQ anyone?). Too bad this game was decided by a referee making a mistake....
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Old 09-26-2012, 10:31 AM
HPF Bob HPF Bob is offline
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The amazing thing is that how generally non-sinister the blown calls have been. If you watched the Sunday night game, you would have sworn the refs were doing a screw job on the Ravens but then on the final drive, all the calls went against the Patriots. Since I'm not rooting for either team, I don't really care the outcome (just like the GB-SEA game) but it sure seemed that if the refs were intentionally throwing a game, their calls don't reflect it.
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  #17  
Old 09-26-2012, 12:29 PM
chuck chuck is offline
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WTF are you people talking about? No one is accusing the replacement refs of throwing the games. They can't call a game much less organize themselves to throw a game. They couldn't organize a lay in a brothel. Of course they're doing the best that they can but they are a motley assortment of junior high castoffs and people they rounded up in line at the plasma collection clinic. The NFL is a multi-billion dollar enterprise and the mind-boggling greed and mean-spiritedness of the owners has turned the league into a national joke.

How a bunch of hourly employees, people that survive paycheck to paycheck, dirt farmers, cube jockeys, fast food eaters, hell, fast food workers, how these people can see their way to side with billionaires over employees is absolutely astonishing to me. Not just here but everywhere that I've seen this discussed.
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Old 09-26-2012, 01:04 PM
Joshua Joshua is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck View Post
WTF are you people talking about? No one is accusing the replacement refs of throwing the games. They can't call a game much less organize themselves to throw a game. They couldn't organize a lay in a brothel. Of course they're doing the best that they can but they are a motley assortment of junior high castoffs and people they rounded up in line at the plasma collection clinic. The NFL is a multi-billion dollar enterprise and the mind-boggling greed and mean-spiritedness of the owners has turned the league into a national joke.

How a bunch of hourly employees, people that survive paycheck to paycheck, dirt farmers, cube jockeys, fast food eaters, hell, fast food workers, how these people can see their way to side with billionaires over employees is absolutely astonishing to me. Not just here but everywhere that I've seen this discussed.
Seems to me like most people have sided with the refs and expressed their displeasure with the league/owners. Most of the comments I've heard on TV, radio, etc. have revolved around telling the owners to make a deal and get the real refs back. In fact, I've heard virtually no discussion of the real refs' demands and whether they are reasonable and should be conceded by the league.

As I understand it, one of the biggest sticking points was the refs' demand for a full blown pension. Foremost, pension benefits have largely been phased out of most compensation packages in favor of defined contribution plans. The league has apparently done this with its employees and didn't want the refs to be the exception. I can certainly understand this stance, particularly considering the refs are generally considered part-time employees with most having full time jobs, often as doctors and lawyers. I certainly wouldn't fault the owners for drawing a line in the sand here and wouldn't hold it against them for refusing to give this concession.
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Old 09-26-2012, 01:37 PM
painekiller painekiller is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua View Post
Seems to me like most people have sided with the refs and expressed their displeasure with the league/owners. Most of the comments I've heard on TV, radio, etc. have revolved around telling the owners to make a deal and get the real refs back. In fact, I've heard virtually no discussion of the real refs' demands and whether they are reasonable and should be conceded by the league.

As I understand it, one of the biggest sticking points was the refs' demand for a full blown pension. Foremost, pension benefits have largely been phased out of most compensation packages in favor of defined contribution plans. The league has apparently done this with its employees and didn't want the refs to be the exception. I can certainly understand this stance, particularly considering the refs are generally considered part-time employees with most having full time jobs, often as doctors and lawyers. I certainly wouldn't fault the owners for drawing a line in the sand here and wouldn't hold it against them for refusing to give this concession.
I can fault the owners on one major issue, the ref requested to work this season under the old agreement while they continue to negotiate, but the owners chose to lock them out and bring in the unqualified replacements. Then the owners refused until the last week to have talks. They made an offer and said take it or we lock you out.

That is my complaint. The owners as a group do not care about the shield, they do not care about the game, they do not care about the players, they only care about the bottom line. And this has been a public relations back fire.

And I am for the most part pro business.
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Old 09-26-2012, 01:56 PM
barrett barrett is offline
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I don't have to be pro-union to say the owners are wrong here. Goodell tried to negotiate with a gun just because he thought he could. I don't care how much leverage the owners have, all that leverage has not helped them one bit to avoid ruining the first 3 weeks of the season. And if anyone thinks that since ratings have not gone down, the owners don't care, then I ask why the owners immediately caved following Monday night?

The NFL could have had a partial victory over the refs months ago. Or they could have negotiated while games were being played. Instead they chose to go the lockout/scorched earth route for no apparent reason other than because they could.

The rhetoric from both sides (players and owners) and the willingness to turn every issue into a death struggle (refs, bounties, head trauma, etc...) is really starting to turn me off of the NFL. Not in a way that I'll voluntarily stop watching (I'm an addict and could never quit), but in a way that I almost wish they blow something so bad that there is nothing for me to watch. Like maybe the players 'win' a giant lawsuit and it bankrupts the NFL model and all the players who 'won' the lawsuit are out of a job and we're all watching the Arena League.

Last edited by barrett; 09-26-2012 at 02:52 PM.
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