Would You Do Cutler To Houston For Schaub and Our #1?

[barrett]

Originally Posted by HPF Bob

That would be sweet for the Texans. As for Denver, I think they made a huge mistake hiring an offensive coach when their defense is what really needs fixing. McDiapers instead is trying to rework the offense and hasn't done much to upgrade the defense, maybe because he doesn't know how. So, at best, the Broncos will still score 30 pts a game and give up 40 pts a game.

Seriously. How do you hire an offensive coach for that job? Does the Denver front office truly believe the problem was that Mike Shanahan was not putting enough points on the board?

The offense was in place and now they are just rebuilding it for the sake of rebuilding it. And wrecking their best player right out of the shoot is a great start.

[HPF Bob]

The feeding frenzy over Cutler is starting to get serious. A lot of the talk seems to be total bs but where there's smoke...

From one source, this was the original deal:
Tampa Bay gets Jay Cutler.
Denver gets Cassel plus Tampa's 1st and 3rd rounders.
New England gets Denver's second rounder.

Then the Lions got into the act and this was the supposed deal:
Detroit gets Jay Cutler and Denver's 3rd-rounder.
Denver gets Cassel and both of Detroit's first-rounders (including overall #1).
New England gets Denver's second rounder.

Allegedly, McDiapers was ready to do either deal but the new Broncos' GM, Xanders, vetoed the idea.

Since this surfaced, one report had Cutler going to Cleveland for Brady Quinn and Shaun Rogers. Another has Cutler going to the Vikings for unspecified player/picks, leading to jokes that Sage Rosenfels would be the new QB in Denver.

Mike Shanahan apparently had so much control of the organization that it has created a power vacuum where nobody knows for sure who is running the show up there.

[Mike]

How could Denver not do the deal for Cassel and get two #1's?

Nice way to build your team, you still have a QB and get the two picks to for Defense or one of the OL.

Say what you want about Mike Shanahan, but this crap would not have happened with him in charge.

[papabear]

I have a hard time buying most of this. From what I heard the reason NE pulled the trigger on the KC deal was that the three way deal were far from being ready and he was worried that if he didn't act quickly they would be stuck with little to no options. They HAD to get a deal done to free up enough space so that they had room to operate.

[HPF Bob]

Originally Posted by Mike

How could Denver not do the deal for Cassel and get two #1's?

Cap ramifications. Paying three #1 draft picks (Detroit's two plus their own at #12) would nuke the cap of most teams. Plus, the overall #1 has become almost impossible to trade down from. And in a year when there is no true can't-miss stud that's a clear #1, you wind up paying top dollar for a guy who probably isn't worth it but will hogtie your salary cap for five years minimum.

Why do you think Detroit was willing to do that?

[NBT]

Originally Posted by TheMatrix31

I would have taken Cutler then and I would take him now.

I'd kill to trade for him.

Then you would have died for nothing!

[HPF Bob]

As things continue to deteriorate in Denver, I'd bet we could get Cutler now for Schaub and a second-rounder straight up. If Cutler doesn't show up for the next round of meetings, the Broncos would be smart to cut their losses and not go through a protracted holdout.

Hey, a Pro Bowl QB for what amounts to three second-round picks (remember, we gave up two #2s for Schaub) is quite a deal.

[TexanJedi]

Originally Posted by HPF Bob

As things continue to deteriorate in Denver, I'd bet we could get Cutler now for Schaub and a second-rounder straight up. If Cutler doesn't show up for the next round of meetings, the Broncos would be smart to cut their losses and not go through a protracted holdout.

Hey, a Pro Bowl QB for what amounts to three second-round picks (remember, we gave up two #2s for Schaub) is quite a deal.

I have to admit I half way expect to check this site one afternoon and see the "Cutler to Houston" thread.

[HPF Bob]

I think Tampa Bay and Detroit want to do a deal more than we do. The difference is that neither has a QB of starting caliber to offer in return. And what does Denver do if they don't get a QB in the trade? Start the spleenless Chris Simms all year?

Cutler has put the feeding frenzy in full throttle tonight. He's demanding a trade and, in the past few days, he and his parents have both listed their Denver homes for sale.

He's cut the legs out of almost any leverage the Broncos might have had in trade talks. The Broncos would be smarter to cut their losses and deal him before the asking price falls any lower. Once the draft has come and gone, the options will become even less.

The Broncos were idiots to start this but now it makes more sense to do the deal sooner rather than later. I think there's almost no chance he won't be traded.

[TheMatrix31]

Is there any real chance that we'd be interested?

[popanot]

A trade with Carolina for Peppers will go down before this one ever will. That's how far-fetched this is. My bet is Kubiak and Smith play it safe and go into (possibly their last) season with what they know instead of some prima donna QB who has basically done nothing other than to show he's an immature brat.

[Mike]

The situation is getting uglier in Denver. Cutler no-shows for the first off-season workout and says he will report when the workouts are mandatory.

It is really far fetched, but if you could make a reasonable deal, then I would be all for it.

[papabear]

If it's a sweetheart deal for us then I wouldn't be upset....but Cutler asked for a trade when they fired Shanny. Then goes batshit when they take a trade call a few months later. He's not anywhere near a TO, but he certainly seems to have an attitude. From a statistical standpoint Schaub's better almost across the board he just has yet to play a whole season...which IMO is the only reason to question Schaub at this point.

[HPF Bob]

Originally Posted by papabear

From a statistical standpoint Schaub's better almost across the board he just has yet to play a whole season...which IMO is the only reason to question Schaub at this point.

I looked up both QB's numbers for last year and here were the relevant ones:

Stat        Cutler      Schaub
Games        16         11
Pss Yards    4526       3043
Yds/Gm       282.9      276.6
Yds/Comp     11.8       12.1
Comp %       62.3       66.1
TD Passes    25         15 
TD %         4.1        3.6
INTs         18         10
INT %        2.9        2.6
QB Rating    86.0       92.7
Fumbles      5          10
Rush Yds     57         68
Rush TDS     2          2

There's not a great difference when you break it down other than Schaub fumbled twice as much as Cutler in five less games. Cutler threw more INTs but he also threw more often and didn't have as reliable a ground game to take the heat off him. When the new season starts, Cutler will be 26 years old and Schaub will be 28.

[papabear]

Originally Posted by HPF Bob

I looked up both QB's numbers for last year and here were the relevant ones:
...
There's not a great difference when you break it down other than Schaub fumbled twice as much as Cutler in five less games. Cutler threw more INTs but he also threw more often and didn't have as reliable a ground game to take the heat off him. When the new season starts, Cutler will be 26 years old and Schaub will be 28.

What I look at is completion percentage, yards per attempt, and int %. They are all pretty close, but Schaub has the edge in all of them. I didn't watch enough of Denver this year to have a great feel for Cutler, but my feeling with him has been than he was impressive in his first full season, but hasn't really grown since then and he is a little over-rated. The only reason I see to question Schaub is that he hasn't played a whole year. Cutler could go down at any time as well, and Schaub has 13 less starts under his belt.

I would rank them close to the same in the pecking order of QB's in the NFL. Cutler's got a stronger arm, but Schaub's arm strength isn't a hindrance to this offense and he's more accurate (could be a function of this offense though). That's why the title of this thread blew me away. We're going to trade for a guy who's pretty close to what we already have, but sounds suspiciously like a whining little Bitch....and we're going to throw in our #1? I wouldn't be upset with Cutler at QB at all, but anything more than a late round pick would be ludicrous if they are getting Schaub in the deal. If this is something the Texans are interested in then they need to remember that the Broncos are the ones with the problem and would be negotiating from the weaker position. I wouldn't offer anything more than a straight swap and I might even ask for a pick from them.

[HPF Bob]

My initial proposal was before the situation in Denver got so terrible. The Texans are in a far better bargaining position now because the Broncos practically need to be rid of Cutler. Every day he is there is one less day the Bronco coaches are in control. If you're a teammate, who do you side with? The new head coach who has only been there a few weeks or the quarterback who has been with them a few years?

However, I think the Broncos will get better offers than Schaub + a draft choice.

The way I look at Schaub vs. Cutler is that Schaub has realized his potential. He is what he is and, like Sage, he'll never be better. His teammates around him may get better but Schaub won't. Cutler, OTOH, is still a few years away from his peak He's as good as Schaub already (and apparently knows how to keep the ball in his mitts when he's tackled unlike Schaub) and would only get better under a coach like Kubiak.

Yes, arm strength in the current offense isn't a big need but with burners like Johnson, Davis and Jones they ought to be throwing deep more often. I think the reason they haven't is because they don't yet have confidence in the OL to hold off the pass rush and Schaub doesn't have the gun a guy like Cutler has. That's why one got chosen in the first half of the first round and the other lasted until the third round.

[papabear]

Originally Posted by HPF Bob

My initial proposal was before the situation in Denver got so terrible. The Texans are in a far better bargaining position now because the Broncos practically need to be rid of Cutler. Every day he is there is one less day the Bronco coaches are in control. If you're a teammate, who do you side with? The new head coach who has only been there a few weeks or the quarterback who has been with them a few years?

However, I think the Broncos will get better offers than Schaub + a draft choice.

The way I look at Schaub vs. Cutler is that Schaub has realized his potential. He is what he is and, like Sage, he'll never be better. His teammates around him may get better but Schaub won't. Cutler, OTOH, is still a few years away from his peak He's as good as Schaub already (and apparently knows how to keep the ball in his mitts when he's tackled unlike Schaub) and would only get better under a coach like Kubiak.

Yes, arm strength in the current offense isn't a big need but with burners like Johnson, Davis and Jones they ought to be throwing deep more often. I think the reason they haven't is because they don't yet have confidence in the OL to hold off the pass rush and Schaub doesn't have the gun a guy like Cutler has. That's why one got chosen in the first half of the first round and the other lasted until the third round.

Cutler obviously is a better athlete. I think the arm thing is overrated when it comes to deep balls though. Throwing a good deep ball is as much about timing and touch as it is about being able to sling it 65 yards. I'm not saying there aren't advantages too having a big gun, there are, but having a stronger arm doesn't meam you automatically throw a better deep ball.

Even before there was one whiff of the controversy I thought it was crazy to give up a first round pick plus Schaub for Cutler. Cutler may have the higher ceiling, but I don't agree with the statement that Schaub has peeked. Maybe age-wise he's in what should be his prime, but I still think Schaub is getting better. I thought he's done a better job of getting rid of the ball on time, or when nothing was there towards the end of year. That should also help cut down on the fumbles. Schaub also has fewer starts under his belt. Yes, the reason for that is the injuries, which is my biggest fear with Schaub. Either way, I'm still not going to make a swap for what I feel is about the same level of QB + my number one draft pick because the other guy might end up improving a little more than the other. Where there where originally drafted stopped being important as soon as there rookie contracts were signed.

None of that even begins to address who's better in the lockerroom, or is a better leader. I'm sure the Broncos share the blame evenly in the whole situation, but Cutler hasn't done anything to make me say that I want him as the leader on my football team.

[BigBull]

I think I have to agree with papabear on this one. I mean the Texans would be crazy to give up Schaub and first for Cutler. Payton or Brady maybe, but Cutler no thanks. I think Kubes likes Schaub to much to do that trade anyway.

[TheMatrix31]

The problem is Schaub's reliability, not his on-the-field production. When he's actually playing, he's as good as most, but the guy is good to miss 3-5 games a season it seems. Yes, I know he got hurt from Allen's dirtiness this past year but it's still disconcerting.

I want to be able to rely on my QB.

[popanot]

People need to realize that this may be Kubiak's last season. I doubt he's going to make a bold move like this and take on a 'new guy' with what's at stake. Physical prowess aside, Schaub already knows Kubiak's system and has proven he can run it effectively. I think Kubiak would rather gamble that Schaub can stay healthy over the unknown of what Cutler may bring. We know Cutler has talent, but there's no guarantee he can quickly pick up the system and fully integrate with his teammates. Kubiak seems to be the type who plays it safe until he knows it's a lost cause (ala, Carr).