Owen Daniels Contract Negotiations

[Keith]

As I was saying earlier today...

Originally Posted by Keith

I hate commenting on this though because we don't know what's really happening with these negotiations. If you think you know just because you saw it reported on the chron or somewhere else, then in reality you only know an angle of it filtered through the lens of someone who may or may not trust and understand the info him/herself.

The chron has an updated article on the situation, this time with quotes from Daniels' agent:

The Chronicle reported that the Texans' offer made would make Daniels the second-highest paid tight end in the league.

“I’ve read reports in the media about the contract and they are not accurate,” Herman said. “We didn’t have anything to do with those reports. I’m hoping we can have professional dialogue with Rick to get this done. I think the key to getting something done is not to go over the details in the media.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...t/6479538.html

So Daniels' camp is disclaiming ownership of the contract details link, and now later in that chron link above Smith says he wants to keep negotiations private. Soooo... typical negotiation stuff, meaning as fans we should be careful to jump to conclusions as long as both sides remain open to negotiation.

And if you want more blah blah on this, Kuharsky has a post at the worldwide.

[papabear]

I'm very skeptical of anything regarding contract amount rumors reported by the chron. Especially since Mcclain has responded to an email of mine about the cap that he didn't really understand how it all worked and that was impossible for someone not in the business to really understand it. I sent him here to Keith's cap page and told him that if a guy who runs a message board in his spare time can take the time to read the CBA and keep up with a cap page that maybe since his job is to cover the NFL he should at least put forth a little effort and try to figure it out. He didn't respond, but I doubt he was amused.

My point is that the chron either parrots what the team tells them just on their word, or is told what the contract offer actually is and doesn't understand it enough to give an accurate picture of what the offer really is.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by papabear

My point is that the chron either parrots what the team tells them just on their word, or is told what the contract offer actually is and doesn't understand it enough to give an accurate picture of what the offer really is.

Even Richard Justice doesn't believe what McClain reports in his own paper on Texans contract negotiations, so why should we?

[papabear]

Originally Posted by Keith

Even Richard Justice doesn't believe what McClain reports in his own paper on Texans contract negotiations, so why should we?

it's just hard for Justice to trust anyone because we are all soooo much dumber than him.

[edo783]

Originally Posted by Keith

So Daniels' camp is disclaiming ownership of the contract details link, and now later in that chron link above Smith says he wants to keep negotiations private. And if you want more blah blah on this, Kuharsky has a post at the worldwide.

See, now that is what makes me think the offer to Dunta is pretty darn close to what has been reported. The agent or someone would have come out and said it was horse hockey if in fact it wasn't reasonably close. Now in ODs case and possibly DRs, from what I gather, based on what I-Cak posted, they may all be squabbling over HOW the guaranteed money is to be paid. Keith would probably know this the best of anyone of us, but from what I can gather, a year or two ago the Texans moved to trying to make the contracts to where they paid the bulk of the guaranteed funds over a couple of years rather than in a big chunk at the start of the contract. I can see the agents wanting the big chunk up front so that if they get fired they at least got paid. I'm not sure if agent contracts work that way to where if they get fired they don't get paid the money in the next years or not. Actually from a player perspective it MIGHT be best for them to get it in multiple chunks from a tax perspective and naturally it is better for the team to spread and level the effects of the cash going out the door. The money is still guaranteed, just a different delivery pattern than what everyone is used to. From that sort of perspective, it does make it at least sort of comprehensible as to why two guys would be turning down deals that at least at first blush, are probably above where their play would/should place their value.

[kravix]

With so many reports about salary offers and salary demands flying around it is hard to belive any of it.

I will say that if OD really is holding out to be paid #1 instead of #4-6 as he should be getting then I would rather see him go. I dont know him personally, but he has never struck me as that kind of guy.

The fact that OD and Drob are both represented by the same agents, and all the crazyness that has gone on around these negotiations really concerns me that perhaps the agents are not on the up and up. If I remember correctly Demeco had the same guys and fired them to pick up the same agent as MW.

What if the Texans did offer #2 and the agents went to OD and gave him a different number, and the same with Drob. Is there anything the league could do after the fact to ensure that players and teams arent getting the run around from shady agents?

If, just if, any of the numbers that have come out for OD and Drob are true, and the Texans have said they offered top money to Drob, it may be possible that much of this is over structures rather than ammounts. We have a cap guru sitting in the Texans FO and it is possible that they are getting a little too cute with their contracts.

[dalemurphy]

Originally Posted by kravix

With so many reports about salary offers and salary demands flying around it is hard to belive any of it.

I will say that if OD really is holding out to be paid #1 instead of #4-6 as he should be getting then I would rather see him go. I dont know him personally, but he has never struck me as that kind of guy.

The fact that OD and Drob are both represented by the same agents, and all the crazyness that has gone on around these negotiations really concerns me that perhaps the agents are not on the up and up. If I remember correctly Demeco had the same guys and fired them to pick up the same agent as MW.

What if the Texans did offer #2 and the agents went to OD and gave him a different number, and the same with Drob. Is there anything the league could do after the fact to ensure that players and teams arent getting the run around from shady agents?

If, just if, any of the numbers that have come out for OD and Drob are true, and the Texans have said they offered top money to Drob, it may be possible that much of this is over structures rather than ammounts. We have a cap guru sitting in the Texans FO and it is possible that they are getting a little too cute with their contracts.

Yeah, much of the discussion probably has to do with bonus triggers, options, etc... Not only is the total amount of a contract a bogus number but often, so is the guaranteed money and even the years of the contract. They are so much more complicated than we make them out to be.

[painekiller]

Originally Posted by kravix

The fact that OD and Drob are both represented by the same agents, and all the crazyness that has gone on around these negotiations really concerns me that perhaps the agents are not on the up and up. If I remember correctly Demeco had the same guys and fired them to pick up the same agent as MW.

Dunta is repressented by Jason Chayut ,and Owen's agents are Alan Herman and David Butz.

Not sure where Lance came up with they have the same agent.

[edo783]

Originally Posted by painekiller

Dunta is repressented by Jason Chayut ,and Owen's agents are Alan Herman and David Butz.

Not sure where Lance came up with they have the same agent.

I think he said "Agent Group". Given that, these guys might be from the same firm, just different agents, but operating on some sort of group think. Not sure if that is it or not, just tossing it out there.

[barrett]

None of us have any idea on any of this. Nothing goes to the media on either side without an agenda. Not to mention the complexity of these contracts. I bet you could show most of us the actual contract, and we still wouldn't know what a guy was paid.

All these numbers are make believe and half the time are more about making an agent look good for his player than about the player getting paid. Its millions of dollars flying around with a dozen lawyers involved, and everybody is out to screw the next guy.

I think with any hold out you just have to wait and see. And even when the dust settles, we'll still probably never know half of the truth.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by edo783

I think he said "Agent Group". Given that, these guys might be from the same firm, just different agents, but operating on some sort of group think. Not sure if that is it or not, just tossing it out there.

Yes, all three are agents from the firm Sportstars, Inc.

btw, Owen had this to say on Monday night via Facebook:

I'm still hopeful we can get a long term deal done. I'm a reasonable person and will absolutely accept a fair deal. The monetary value of the deal means less to me than the fairness of it. (i.e. to me a te deal that is two years old is no longer relevant.)

[papabear]

Originally Posted by Keith

Yes, all three are agents from the firm Sportstars, Inc.

btw, Owen had this to say on Monday night via Facebook:

what that says to me is that the Texans are saying Winslows deal is unreasonable and we are not going to use that as a basis for a contract with Owen. O.D. is saying that's market value for a top TE right now.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by papabear

what that says to me is that the Texans are saying Winslows deal is unreasonable and we are not going to use that as a basis for a contract with Owen. O.D. is saying that's market value for a top TE right now.

You are probably right. While we may or may not think Winslow's deal is reasonable, Daniels' camp is right to reference it in the negotiations imo.

The Texans, however, still have the leverage here, especially in the absence of a new CBA. Daniels is a RFA, and there is little he can do to push his point assuming he'll cease his life as a holdout at some point. The question is just going to be how far apart the two parties are.

[nunusguy]

Originally Posted by Keith

You are probably right. While we may or may not think Winslow's deal is reasonable, Daniels' camp is right to reference it in the negotiations imo.

The Texans, however, still have the leverage here, especially in the absence of a new CBA. Daniels is a RFA, and there is little he can do to push his point assuming he'll cease his life as a holdout at some point. The question is just going to be how far apart the two parties are.

I dunno, but it seems stunning to me how far Owen Daniels and his agents got ahead of themselves on this deal and I honestly think his demands are totally unreasonable if not outragous if he's thinking anything like 20 M guaranteed. As I recall AJ only got about 15 M in guaranteed money on his new deal just a couple years ago ?
Daniels is a good TE, but not in the league of Gonzales or Gates or others and he appears to have a very inflated idea of his value to the team. If he got what these reports seem to imply he's after, just imagine what the Texans would have to cough up for DeMeco (not to mention Mario, Shaub, & others down the road). And of course they'd have to rewrite AJs deal.
And they just drafted 2 more TEs this year and Dressen isn't a bad backup for OD, while being at 260 quite a bit bigger than OD. Now that OD has signed
his tender, isn't he ripe as trade bait ? I'd consider trading him for a high 2nd, and be all over any 1st round pick.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by nunusguy

I dunno, but it seems stunning to me how far Owen Daniels and his agents got ahead of themselves on this deal and I honestly think his demands are totally unreasonable if not outragous if he's thinking anything like 20 M guaranteed. As I recall AJ only got about 15 M in guaranteed money on his new deal just a couple years ago ?
Daniels is a good TE, but not in the league of Gonzales or Gates or others and he appears to have a very inflated idea of his value to the team. If he got what these reports seem to imply he's after, just imagine what the Texans would have to cough up for DeMeco (not to mention Mario, Shaub, & others down the road). And of course they'd have to rewrite AJs deal.
And they just drafted 2 more TEs this year and Dressen isn't a bad backup for OD, while being at 260 quite a bit bigger than OD. Now that OD has signed
his tender, isn't he ripe as trade bait ? I'd consider trading him for a high 2nd, and be all over any 1st round pick.

I think all of this explains why we drafted Casey. It would appear we are hoping that Daniels can be replaced in what is a very TE friendly offense.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by nunusguy

... just a couple years ago ?

I don't mean to be blunt, but this is sorta the point: Welcome to 2009. The NFL's barometer for salaries increases significantly every year.

And lest we forget, Daniels was in the Pro Bowl last year. Actually, if memory serves, he had a pretty good game, too.

Originally Posted by barrett

It would appear we are hoping that Daniels can be replaced in what is a very TE friendly offense.

Yes, this interpretation worries me some. Are some fans damning him because they perceive the Texans as employers of a TE-friendly offense?

Daniels:
2008 70-862-2
2007 63-768-3
2006 34-352-5

Bronco Leading TEs:
2006 Tony Scheffler 18-286-4
2005 Jeb Putzier 37-481-0
2004 Jeb Putzier 36-572-2
2003 Shannon Sharpe 62-770-8
2002 Shannon Sharpe 61-686-3
2001 Dwayne Carswell 34-299-4

You have to go back to Shannon Sharpe before you find numbers as good as Daniels'. And Sharpe's stood out among other Bronco TEs, i.e. Sharpe is the reason Sharpe was good, not just the TE-friendly offense. He was a Hall of Fame finalist this year.

Daniels has out-performed Putzier and Scheffler, the former who knew the offense better when he arrived in Houston three years ago, and the latter who was picked two rounds before Daniels. Maybe Daniels is the reason Daniels is good?

I am hopeful Casey is Daniels v2.0. Actually, I think Dreesen gets a chance before Casey. But no one knows for sure how good they can be and how soon.

btw, an extension or a re-worked contract isn't out of the question for Angry Dre, especially if his deal falls out of the top 10 or something.

[nunusguy]

Originally Posted by Keith

And lest we forget, Daniels was in the Pro Bowl last year. Actually, if memory serves, he had a pretty good game, too.

He was Will Demps II, a guy who was a substitute on the Pro-Bowl team a couple years ago who didn't get to make the trip and was later cut by the Texans and is no longer even on the team. He may be out of football for all I know ?
As a sub Daniels got lucky when Gates or somebody cancelled out and he went to Hawaii and actually got in the game, caught a couple passes, even a TD pass. For being a lucky sub he's now worth 20 M guaranteed ?
On the other hand I say pay DeMeco, really whatever it takes because he's our best D player (sorry Mario), and the leader of the D ?

[papabear]

Originally Posted by nunusguy

He was Will Demps II, a guy who was a substitute on the Pro-Bowl team a couple years ago who didn't get to make the trip and was later cut by the Texans and is no longer even on the team. He may be out of football for all I know ?
As a sub Daniels got lucky when Gates or somebody cancelled out and he went to Hawaii and actually got in the game, caught a couple passes, even a TD pass. For being a lucky sub he's now worth 20 M guaranteed ?
On the other hand I say pay DeMeco, really whatever it takes because he's our best D player (sorry Mario), and the leader of the D ?

a pro bowl nod is almost as worthless as a golden glove. The biggest difference between Will and Owen is that many people thought Owen deserved to go before an injury got him there. With Will everyone was absolutely SHOCKED that Will was even in the conversation.

If you want to get mad at anyone get mad at Tampa Bay for giving Winslow all that money.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by Keith

I don't mean to be blunt, but this is sorta the point: Welcome to 2009. The NFL's barometer for salaries increases significantly every year.

And lest we forget, Daniels was in the Pro Bowl last year. Actually, if memory serves, he had a pretty good game, too.



Yes, this interpretation worries me some. Are some fans damning him because they perceive the Texans as employers of a TE-friendly offense?

Daniels:
2008 70-862-2
2007 63-768-3
2006 34-352-5

Bronco Leading TEs:
2006 Tony Scheffler 18-286-4
2005 Jeb Putzier 37-481-0
2004 Jeb Putzier 36-572-2
2003 Shannon Sharpe 62-770-8
2002 Shannon Sharpe 61-686-3
2001 Dwayne Carswell 34-299-4

You have to go back to Shannon Sharpe before you find numbers as good as Daniels'. And Sharpe's stood out among other Bronco TEs, i.e. Sharpe is the reason Sharpe was good, not just the TE-friendly offense. He was a Hall of Fame finalist this year.

Daniels has out-performed Putzier and Scheffler, the former who knew the offense better when he arrived in Houston three years ago, and the latter who was picked two rounds before Daniels. Maybe Daniels is the reason Daniels is good?

I am hopeful Casey is Daniels v2.0. Actually, I think Dreesen gets a chance before Casey. But no one knows for sure how good they can be and how soon.

btw, an extension or a re-worked contract isn't out of the question for Angry Dre, especially if his deal falls out of the top 10 or something.

Denver is not Houston and the offenses are not identical. Certainly not in how we run them. The rushing stats bear that out.

Our offense is far more TE friendly than Denver's, perhaps by subtle differences in design, but certainly due to Andre Johnson and Matt Schaub.

Johnson is constantly bracketed with a safety which means our TEs are constantly working in space against LBs. There is no parallel to AJ in the Denver offense, so their TEs don't have the space or success ours have.

Additionally Schaub is characterized by mediocre arm strength, good accuracy, and getting the ball out quickly. All of these factors lend themselves to the TE getting the ball. Cutler (and even Plummer before him), are total opposites.

It is not relevant what Denver TEs do when deciding how hard it is/how much talent is needed for a Houston TE to succeed. I think Daniels is a smart and tough player who is in a perfect fit to make him look far better than he is. Not to mention that even with the good stats he was ineffective in the red zone last year, fumbled too much, and is not a great blocker. He is one of my favorite Texans, but he is nowhere near a top NFL TE.

[Bigtinylittle]

Originally Posted by barrett

Denver is not Houston and the offenses are not identical. Certainly not in how we run them. The rushing stats bear that out.

Our offense is far more TE friendly than Denver's, perhaps by subtle differences in design, but certainly due to Andre Johnson and Matt Schaub.

Johnson is constantly bracketed with a safety which means our TEs are constantly working in space against LBs. There is no parallel to AJ in the Denver offense, so their TEs don't have the space or success ours have.

Additionally Schaub is characterized by mediocre arm strength, good accuracy, and getting the ball out quickly. All of these factors lend themselves to the TE getting the ball. Cutler (and even Plummer before him), are total opposites.

It is not relevant what Denver TEs do when deciding how hard it is/how much talent is needed for a Houston TE to succeed. I think Daniels is a smart and tough player who is in a perfect fit to make him look far better than he is. Not to mention that even with the good stats he was ineffective in the red zone last year, fumbled too much, and is not a great blocker. He is one of my favorite Texans, but he is nowhere near a top NFL TE.

This is exactly why I don't want Owen Daniels to get a huge contract. He's just not worth it. The guys you want to pay the most are the difference-makers. In other words, the guys who you are going to miss the most if they aren't in the game. I like Owen as a player, but it wouldn't make me really nervous if he was sitting out a game with an injury. I was never nervous when Putzier came in the game. Or even Dreesen. Any decent tight end is probably going to do pretty well in our offense. I would be far more worried if Schaub was sitting out. Or Andre Johnson. Or Slaton. Frankly, I would be more worried if Pitts was sitting out. Or Brown. Or Winston. Schaub waits a long time for routes to develop, something that benefits Owen's numbers a lot.