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  #1  
Old 05-22-2008, 05:19 PM
HPF Bob HPF Bob is offline
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Default Would You Give A 3rd Rounder For Jason Taylor?

Now that the Dolphins have pretty much declared Jason Taylor on the trading block, would you part with a third to bring him to Houston?

I would. I think he would be the edge rusher we keep hearing that we need. He's going to force opponents to account for him which will improve the games of Mario, Amobi and DeMeco. We could wind up with a D-line that will absolutely dominate up front which will mean better production from our porous secondary.

Yes, Taylor will be expensive and he may be on a bit of decline but I think he's going to disrupt a lot of pass plays and force more single blocking schemes for Mario and the others.
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Old 05-22-2008, 11:13 PM
painekiller painekiller is offline
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If I truly thought we where the 1st or 2nd best team in our division, and that we had a chance to go deep into the playoffs this year or next, then I would pull that trigger.

But we are currently 3rd or 4th in our division, and we have some other holes to plug before we are being talked about as a top AFC team, none bigger than this one granted.

Indy, NE, San Diego and Jacksonville are the current class of our conference. Jacksonville should have made the move for Taylor.

And I think we need that 3rd pick to play for us for the next 7 years, not the next couple.

Just my opinion.
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Old 05-23-2008, 01:15 AM
painekiller painekiller is offline
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Wanted to add, seems a few teams are interested in giving up a 4th, if you believe the reports on ESPN. There has been some talk also of conditional 3rds.

I have to agree with Bob, adding Taylor would give us our best DL to date, and a potential top 5 DL, maybe even top 3.

I still want to build for the long haul future, choosing to avoid the Drayton McClain practice of going for the short term big name, while selling off the future.
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Old 05-23-2008, 03:28 AM
TheMatrix31 TheMatrix31 is offline
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I say we should definitely give a third rounder if that's all it takes to get Jason Taylor. He'd be a great mentor to Mario and having those two guys on the edge would be murder for any ppposing OL and QB. Have DeMeco back that line up and it'll just be filthy defense.

And hey, third in THIS division proved to be good enough to get a wild card spot in the playoffs last year. Wouldn't happen every year but I think that could be a move that would push us towards 10, 11 wins.

Of course, that'd just be me being optimistic.
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Old 05-23-2008, 07:25 AM
KJ3 KJ3 is offline
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no

eric winston, charles spencer, steve slaton, antwaun molden, jacoby jones. did i miss any of them? kubiak is TOO good with his 3rd round picks.

jason taylor is the prototypical "we need one more veteran guy on our defensive line for a championship caliber defense" and we would need him, a LB and a Safety or two to have that. let him dance elsewhere!

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Old 05-23-2008, 08:22 AM
papabear papabear is offline
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Jason Taylor is not the same player anymore. Of course he is still one of the best ends in league. He's been very durable for most of his career, but he also definitely has plans for after football. I don't see him playing for more than a couple of years....and its possible he could have a big decline in his play during that time.

I would love to have someone like him around for Mario....I just wouldn't want to lose a third round pick for him at this stage in hi career. I think the Dolphins screwed up by not moving him before or during the draft. Teams would have been more likely to deal then. Now the Dolphins are in the situation of HAVING to trade him....or risk having a very bad situation drag out over the whole season.

I would be happy if we got him....I would just prefer it if we did for a fourth round pick or later. Even fourth round picks can be very important to the long term "health" of a team.
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Old 05-23-2008, 08:29 AM
Texan from KC Texan from KC is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KJ3 View Post
no

eric winston, charles spencer, steve slaton, antwaun molden, jacoby jones. did i miss any of them? kubiak is TOO good with his 3rd round picks.
I see one starter, one guy who played two games (although I am not arguing about what could have been), one guy who we still know little about after a rookie campaign, and two guys who haven't even signed their rookie contracts yet. There could be 5 future Pro-Bowlers there, or there could be 4 guys who are off the team in 2-3 years just like Taylor would be.

Kubes and Smith are doing a tremendous job of finding talent through both the draft and FA, but let's not go overboard giving guys credit who haven't done anything yet.

As far as the trade goes, I think I'd do the 3rd rounder for Taylor, and I'd definitely do the 4th rounder. Not just for the talent, but for the presence he'd bring. The guys who are the core of our defense are all very young - Dunta's the veteran of the group, and he's only played 4 years. Taylor could help even after he's gone by leaving a legacy. Plus, after being dissed by the Fins, he ought to feel he's got something to prove at his next (and likely final) stop.
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Old 05-23-2008, 08:36 AM
edo783 edo783 is offline
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Obviously a pick lower than a third would be better, but I think I would pull the trigger on this one with a third, but with conditions.

1. It is a short term contract - preferably 2 years, but would consider three.

2. It is structured such that we don't take a shot to the shorts cap wise if it doesn't workout and we have to cut him.

3. He make some sort of personal comitment to do at least 2 years if he is able to play. I know that has no force of law, but I would just like to hear that he will give it his best for 2 years. This is the thing that actually would worry me the most. I think he may allready have mentally left the game of football.
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  #9  
Old 05-23-2008, 09:46 AM
KJ3 KJ3 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texan from KC View Post
I see one starter, one guy who played two games (although I am not arguing about what could have been), one guy who we still know little about after a rookie campaign, and two guys who haven't even signed their rookie contracts yet. There could be 5 future Pro-Bowlers there, or there could be 4 guys who are off the team in 2-3 years just like Taylor would be.

Kubes and Smith are doing a tremendous job of finding talent through both the draft and FA, but let's not go overboard giving guys credit who haven't done anything yet.
well, you're going overboard with your reply homie. i said they were good 3rd round draft picks, not all-star future hall-of-famers. big difference. the biggest difference though, is that kubiak makes good use of his 3rd round picks. at least his guys have potential to be all-stars, maybe a HOFer comes out of it but i'm not betting on it. look at, for an easy example, casserly's 3rd round selections. fred weary, he's alright. charles hill, who? seth wand, sucked! dave ragone, worse than picking carr the year before! vernand morency, really? let's not forget the sweeping bust that took, among other things, a 3rd rounder to get babin.

the point is, kubiak's selections and coaching make a 3rd round worth much more than the end of jason taylor's career.
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Old 05-23-2008, 09:57 AM
kravix kravix is offline
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I wouldnt be upset if we handed a 3rd rounder in for him, but at the same time I wouldnt do it. His tenure here would be very short, his contract is sure to be rather big, and we are no where near to 1 great player away from a championship. While I do think we can make the playoffs I dont see us as a Superbowl team yet. (I am entitled to change this opinion after the season starts and we have a better evaluation).

A fourth rounder I would jump on, but that 4th would have to be a conditional 3rd at least IMO, which brings me back to point one.

Yes it would be exiting, yes he would make the def better, and yes I would love to watch him and Mario destroy offenses. But the long term value isnt there.
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Old 05-23-2008, 10:28 AM
cadams cadams is offline
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i would definitely give up a 3rd for him, i think he has got at least 3 years left in him, and if he plays around the same level he did last year (11 sacks i bleieve) it would make a HUGE difference with our defense.
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Old 05-23-2008, 10:37 AM
Texan from KC Texan from KC is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KJ3 View Post

the point is, kubiak's selections and coaching make a 3rd round worth much more than the end of jason taylor's career.
I'm not arguing about the astuteness of the current Texans brain-trust. In fact, you could turn that around and point out that as good as I (actually it should be we) think are last three drafts were (and I think the '06 draft is borderline historic), in two of those drafts we didn't have a 2nd round pick. Still good drafts in all cases. If they were good with no 2nd round pick, I don't think a '09 draft without a 3rd rounder would be a bad thing at all if we can replace that 3rd rounder with a former DPoY who still has something left in the tank.

Let's say that Kubes is here for another 10 years (maybe realistic, maybe not). Given the sheer amount of 3rd round picks he's going to be making over that time, there will be some picks that don't turn out. With Taylor, you've got a pretty good idea of what you're getting, and it aint bad.

As much as Taylor would bring on the field, I think he would add locker room intangibles that could go on well after his retirement. I've heard (and believe) the comment that going from 8-8 to 10-6 is far more difficult than going from 6-10 to 8-8. I think Taylor gives us a better chance of making that jump this year, and I think that's worth alot (up to and including a 3rd round pick).
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Old 05-23-2008, 10:48 AM
HPF Bob HPF Bob is offline
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Imagine if we could have shanghaied a third for Sage Rosenfels, this decision would be easier. (No, the Dolphins probably wouldn't do a Sage-for-Taylor trade, in part because the Fins now have two high picks spent on QBs).
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Old 05-23-2008, 11:01 AM
papabear papabear is offline
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I can see both sides to this debate, but the more I think about it the more I think the phins screwed up by not working a little harder to get something done by draft day.
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Old 05-23-2008, 11:15 AM
Texan from KC Texan from KC is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papabear View Post
I can see both sides to this debate, but the more I think about it the more I think the phins screwed up by not working a little harder to get something done by draft day.
QFT

Imagine that - The Big Tuna making a mistake.
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  #16  
Old 05-23-2008, 01:12 PM
edo783 edo783 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texan from KC View Post
QFT

Imagine that - The Big Tuna making a mistake.
Tuna probably didn't believe it wouldn't workout and that he could "Manhandle" Jason. Jason sees himself out of football either now or in the very near future and didn't give a rip what Tuna wanted or thought.
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Old 05-23-2008, 01:30 PM
KJ3 KJ3 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texan from KC View Post
I'm not arguing about the astuteness of the current Texans brain-trust. In fact, you could turn that around and point out that as good as I (actually it should be we) think are last three drafts were (and I think the '06 draft is borderline historic), in two of those drafts we didn't have a 2nd round pick. Still good drafts in all cases. If they were good with no 2nd round pick, I don't think a '09 draft without a 3rd rounder would be a bad thing at all if we can replace that 3rd rounder with a former DPoY who still has something left in the tank.

Let's say that Kubes is here for another 10 years (maybe realistic, maybe not). Given the sheer amount of 3rd round picks he's going to be making over that time, there will be some picks that don't turn out. With Taylor, you've got a pretty good idea of what you're getting, and it aint bad.

As much as Taylor would bring on the field, I think he would add locker room intangibles that could go on well after his retirement. I've heard (and believe) the comment that going from 8-8 to 10-6 is far more difficult than going from 6-10 to 8-8. I think Taylor gives us a better chance of making that jump this year, and I think that's worth alot (up to and including a 3rd round pick).
i just smilied my responses to reading haha...easy, quick, and above all no explaining!!!

nah, i'm not belichick, i'll talk.

i don't buy the "kubiak will have plenty of 3rd rounds in his tenure" or the "well we didn't have a 2nd and it was fine" bits. neither is a reason to give up a 3rd for a 33 year old, 11 year vet who has one foot out the door to his hollywood interests but may come back to play for a SUPER BOWL CONTENDER being that he is the "superstar vet looking for one last chance on a team that is one player away" type. besides, not having a 2nd round the last two years has been brutality on wheels -and i'm just a fan- imagine these guys straining over it for months and months.

probably not the hell it used to be, but he would bring some hellraising defense.

the locker-room leadership thing has always been a mystery to me. some people think it's important while others not so much. i think it's important, but i also believe it has more to do with who is setting the tone for the locker room. maybe it is the players, but i look at how this team is turning around and i say it's kubiak. but nobody really knows so...whatev.

i see the good in taylor man, i really do. great guy, consumate professional, all-pro player, hellraiser, emotional leader but i look at what is being given up and i just think it's too much to get him. not that any of this matters, because i don't think parcells will let him go anywhere.
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Old 05-23-2008, 01:34 PM
KJ3 KJ3 is offline
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Originally Posted by edo783 View Post
Tuna probably didn't believe it wouldn't workout and that he could "Manhandle" Jason. Jason sees himself out of football either now or in the very near future and didn't give a rip what Tuna wanted or thought.
i think that's the "no ego, no superstars" mentality that parcells is known for. not always nice, but i think it's the right thing for him to do.

now taylor has to do what's right for him. play for tuna or go home.
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Old 05-23-2008, 03:02 PM
Texan from KC Texan from KC is offline
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Originally Posted by KJ3 View Post
i just smilied my responses to reading haha...easy, quick, and above all no explaining!!!

nah, i'm not belichick, i'll talk.

i don't buy the "kubiak will have plenty of 3rd rounds in his tenure" or the "well we didn't have a 2nd and it was fine" bits. neither is a reason to give up a 3rd for a 33 year old, 11 year vet who has one foot out the door to his hollywood interests but may come back to play for a SUPER BOWL CONTENDER being that he is the "superstar vet looking for one last chance on a team that is one player away" type. besides, not having a 2nd round the last two years has been brutality on wheels -and i'm just a fan- imagine these guys straining over it for months and months.

probably not the hell it used to be, but he would bring some hellraising defense.

the locker-room leadership thing has always been a mystery to me. some people think it's important while others not so much. i think it's important, but i also believe it has more to do with who is setting the tone for the locker room. maybe it is the players, but i look at how this team is turning around and i say it's kubiak. but nobody really knows so...whatev.

i see the good in taylor man, i really do. great guy, consumate professional, all-pro player, hellraiser, emotional leader but i look at what is being given up and i just think it's too much to get him. not that any of this matters, because i don't think parcells will let him go anywhere.
Sounds like we basically have a difference of opinion on how well and how long JT's going to play. I think he's got at least a couple of years of high-level playing (with a change of scenery anyway). I think there's still a small chance of him being back with the Dolphins, but I think he'll be a man on a mission if he's traded or cut.

And trust me, in two/three years if we can look at Kubiak's list of 3rd round picks and find as few "busts" as you clearly believe we will, I'll be happier than you could know.
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  #20  
Old 05-23-2008, 06:11 PM
HPF Bob HPF Bob is offline
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An even more fun idea would be a trade for Taylor *and* Ricky Williams. I don't know what the cap ramifications would be (probably sucks worse for the Dolphins) but the Texans would be getting two former All-Pros on the cheap that could be spectacular with a change of scenery.

I'm still talking about just a third-rounder here but Tuna might like the idea of unloading two albatrosses who I think still have something left to prove. And isn't rush end and RB two positions we were thinking were weaknesses before the draft?

Obviously, I'd want to know what the contract situations would be like but it is something to ponder about. Of course, maybe we should wait for June 2nd to see if they might get cut first.
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