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  #1  
Old 02-19-2018, 11:00 AM
HPF Bob HPF Bob is offline
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Default CBS: Texans To Release Cushing

https://247sports.com/nfl/texans/Bol...hing-115287645

Not surprising. Misses too much playing time for various reasons and would be a big cap saving.
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  #2  
Old 02-19-2018, 12:03 PM
barrett barrett is offline
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I'm glad they are letting him go but he was a heck of a player before the leg injury (break?) a few years back, and he had a mini-resurgence 2 years ago.

Is he the best ever Texans LB?
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  #3  
Old 02-19-2018, 01:14 PM
HPF Bob HPF Bob is offline
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Originally Posted by barrett View Post
Is he the best ever Texans LB?
Depends on whether you define edge rushers as linebackers. If so, Whitney Mercilus is probably the best but Clowney could be better with another year or two of production.

If not, what is Cushing's competition? Jay Foreman? Kailee Wong? That is like being the prettiest girl in Rhode Island.

In addition, the Texans already have two ILBs in McKinney and Chamberlain so he won't be missed.
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  #4  
Old 02-19-2018, 03:33 PM
barrett barrett is offline
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Originally Posted by HPF Bob View Post
Depends on whether you define edge rushers as linebackers. If so, Whitney Mercilus is probably the best but Clowney could be better with another year or two of production.

If not, what is Cushing's competition? Jay Foreman? Kailee Wong? That is like being the prettiest girl in Rhode Island.

In addition, the Texans already have two ILBs in McKinney and Chamberlain so he won't be missed.
At this point I'd take Cushing over Mercilous. Cushing had a 2 year or so stretch as maybe the best MLB in football, and definitely the most violent. He cleaned off piles and friendly fired teammates in a frightening way. When he was at his peak he was a terror who the other 21 guys on the field had to keep their eyes peeled for. Mercilous could pass him, but probably not before he is himself passed by Clowney.
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  #5  
Old 02-19-2018, 03:52 PM
HPF Bob HPF Bob is offline
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Before he was cheap-shotted by the Jets, he was playing like a first-round LB. I don't think he was up there with Ray Lewis or Clay Matthews but he was a presence.

Once the knee was blown, he was done. Of course, now that Cushing and Duane Brown are gone, the only huge Texans contract one could dump for cap space is J.J. Watt and I'm guessing that won't happen for at least two years - regardless how healthy he is.
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  #6  
Old 02-19-2018, 05:04 PM
barrett barrett is offline
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Originally Posted by HPF Bob View Post
Before he was cheap-shotted by the Jets, he was playing like a first-round LB. I don't think he was up there with Ray Lewis or Clay Matthews but he was a presence.

Once the knee was blown, he was done. Of course, now that Cushing and Duane Brown are gone, the only huge Texans contract one could dump for cap space is J.J. Watt and I'm guessing that won't happen for at least two years - regardless how healthy he is.
Ray Lewis' deer antler spray might have been more effective than Cushing's female fertility drugs.
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  #7  
Old 02-20-2018, 01:12 PM
nunusguy nunusguy is offline
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Originally Posted by barrett View Post
I'm glad they are letting him go but he was a heck of a player before the leg injury (break?) a few years back, and he had a mini-resurgence 2 years ago.

Is he the best ever Texans LB?
No way because that's DeMeco.
Clowney is a different kind of player than Ryans & Cushing because he's an edge guy as both a 4-3 DE and 3-4 OLB.
But for best pure 4-3 backer it's DeMeco.
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  #8  
Old 02-20-2018, 03:24 PM
barrett barrett is offline
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I take Cushing over Ryans all day. Demeco was a tackling machine, but rarely made impact plays. He could usually be found tackling a ball carrier a few yards downfield. Cushing had way more impact plays and averaged more sacks, INTs, and TFLs during his time, and far more during the respective peaks. Additionally, Cushing was a key part to far better teams and defenses.

Overall Demeco was healthier, a better tackler, and was better at play recognition. But he couldn't take on blocks, was far worse in coverage, made far fewer impact plays, and was way less physical. Even though Demeco's peak was in Houston, he actually set career highs for INTs and Sacks in Philly. In Houston he was a low impact volume tackler. Jamie Sharper actually compares favorably to Demeco and played on better defenses.

If Clowney keeps it up he surpasses them all.
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  #9  
Old 02-21-2018, 09:35 AM
nunusguy nunusguy is offline
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If you take a look you will see their stats are pretty close (for example same for sacks), while DeMeco is way ahead in tackling but then you said he was a tackling machine which is about the highest comp one can pay a linebacker.
Cushing had more "impact plays" so unlike stats that's very subjective whatever that means ?
JD Clowney is an entirely different football player and different category of player than DeMeco & Cushing.
Would we compare the careers of Cushing & DeMeco to Mario Williams ? No because we know that's apple an oranges. Now Clowney and Williams are comparable, comparable categories.
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  #10  
Old 02-21-2018, 11:26 AM
barrett barrett is offline
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Cushing's pre-injury 3 season peak in Houston is 2009-2011. He plays 44 out of 48 games and has 9.5 sacks and 6 INTs. That's a sack every 5 games and an INT every 7.

Demeco's peak in Houston is 2006-2009. He plays 64 of 64 games and has 7.5 sacks and 2 INTs. That's a sack every 9 games and an INT every 32.

That's what I mean by more impact plays.

Demeco was healthier and a better tackler, but they were low impact tackles. He was a guy who made tackles a few yards downfield. If the DL didn't keep the OL off of him he was awful at shedding blocks because he was undersized and not very physical. He was a smart and instinctive player who played above his physical talents and was a ton of fun to root for, but he wasn't a high impact player in Houston. He had a bigger impact in Philly so maybe it had something to do with how he was used in Houston.

Cushing didn't have the tackling numbers. Instead of diagnosing plays he flew to the ball which worked well in Wade's defense. He was super physical and owned the point of attack. He was very good in coverage his first 3 years which is rare for a big, point of attack MLB. He couldn't stay healthy and because of that had a career that is more about peak than longevity.

And like I said, Sharper is right there with both guys statistically and was a part of some solid defenses.
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  #11  
Old 02-21-2018, 11:51 AM
Keith Keith is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barrett View Post
Is he the best ever Texans LB?
Interesting question.

I'd remove the pass rushers from this... Clowney, Mercilus, etc. Clowney would end the conversation immediately, but he isn't a typical LB.

This then breaks down into one of those baseball Hall of Fame type discussions. Do you favor the player with the highest peak or the one with the best longevity? And if it's the highest peak, how long must that player have been at that peak? (Nevermind the HoF convos about honoring steroid users, also appropriate here.)

Cushing was fierce his first three seasons before his first major injury, more than living up to his mid-1st round selection. A DROY and one-time Pro Bowler, he's had an admirable career regardless, but it is hard to imagine what could've been had he not suffered the injuries since he flashed such potential.

DeMeco Ryans, a 2nd rounder in the Mario Williams draft, was more than just solid for six seasons in Houston, notching two Pro Bowls, one All Pro season, and a DROY. He never had the sort of impact plays Cushing was capable of making, but he was reliable, a leader, and loved as team captain. Don't sell him short. Oh, and he wasn't on roids since he was a teenager. The Texans neutered Ryans when they switched to the 3-4 under Wade Phillips. Ryans just never fit right in anything but a 4-3.

Here's what Cushing said about DeMeco at the time of the trade:
Brian Cushing (@briancushing56): "I wouldn't be half the player or person I am today without @DRyans59 this one hurts. Philly got a unbelievable player and leader today. #59″

So yeah Cushing would get my vote as best Texans LB, but he's not running away with it.

Honorable mention for me to Jamie Sharper who spent the back third of his career in Houston as an expansion player. While he didn't haul in a ton of awards, he was a solid contributor on those early and surprisingly adequate expansion-year defenses. He could make far more impact plays than Ryans, but I don't think Ryans was really asked to make those kinds of contributions in the scheme.
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  #12  
Old 02-21-2018, 11:56 AM
barrett barrett is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith View Post
Interesting question.

I'd remove the pass rushers from this... Clowney, Mercilus, etc. Clowney would end the conversation immediately, but he isn't a typical LB.

This then breaks down into one of those baseball Hall of Fame type discussions. Do you favor the player with the highest peak or the one with the best longevity? And if it's the highest peak, how long must that player have been at that peak? (Nevermind the HoF convos about honoring steroid users, also appropriate here.)

Cushing was fierce his first three seasons before his first major injury, more than living up to his mid-1st round selection. A DROY and one-time Pro Bowler, he's had an admirable career regardless, but it is hard to imagine what could've been had he not suffered the injuries since he flashed such potential.

DeMeco Ryans, a 2nd rounder in the Mario Williams draft, was more than just solid for six seasons in Houston, notching two Pro Bowls, one All Pro season, and a DROY. He never had the sort of impact plays Cushing was capable of making, but he was reliable, a leader, and loved as team captain. Don't sell him short. Oh, and he wasn't on roids since he was a teenager. The Texans neutered Ryans when they switched to the 3-4 under Wade Phillips. Ryans just never fit right in anything but a 4-3.

Here's what Cushing said about DeMeco at the time of the trade:
Brian Cushing (@briancushing56): "I wouldn't be half the player or person I am today without @DRyans59 this one hurts. Philly got a unbelievable player and leader today. #59″

So yeah Cushing would get my vote as best Texans LB, but he's not running away with it.

Honorable mention for me to Jamie Sharper who spent the back third of his career in Houston as an expansion player. While he didn't haul in a ton of awards, he was a solid contributor on those early and surprisingly adequate expansion-year defenses. He could make far more impact plays than Ryans, but I don't think Ryans was really asked to make those kinds of contributions in the scheme.
I agree the 34 ruined Ryans because it asked him to deal with OL. I also think his time in Philly showed he could have done more than be a 2 down tackler like he was in Houston. He also clearly had the leadership intangibles.

As for Cushing's steroid use, I assume every NFL player uses PEDs. The sport is made for using 6 months a year and cycling off before testing starts back up in training camp. We're playing make believe if we think all of those guys aren't on something.
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  #13  
Old 02-21-2018, 12:11 PM
barrett barrett is offline
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And I don't mean this post to knock Demeco, but rather to show that high tackle numbers are not very meaningful.

NFL 2017 Tackle Leaders
1. Preston Brown
1. Joe Schobert
3. Blake Martinez
4. Christian Kirksey
4. Deion Jones

None of those guys are big time NFL players and none come from top defenses. The only one who made the top 7 LBs in pro football focus grades was Jones who was the 4th LB (I say top 7 because that's all I could find listed). 2 of the top 5 tacklers were on the same bad Browns defense and compiled volume tackles while being on the field a ton.

So yes Demeco was very, very good. No getting lots of tackles does not mean a guy is a great MLB.
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  #14  
Old 02-21-2018, 02:03 PM
nunusguy nunusguy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barrett View Post
Cushing's pre-injury 3 season peak in Houston is 2009-2011. He plays 44 out of 48 games and has 9.5 sacks and 6 INTs. That's a sack every 5 games and an INT every 7.

Demeco's peak in Houston is 2006-2009. He plays 64 of 64 games and has 7.5 sacks and 2 INTs. That's a sack every 9 games and an INT every 32.

That's what I mean by more impact plays.

Demeco was healthier and a better tackler, but they were low impact tackles. He was a guy who made tackles a few yards downfield. If the DL didn't keep the OL off of him he was awful at shedding blocks because he was undersized and not very physical. He was a smart and instinctive player who played above his physical talents and was a ton of fun to root for, but he wasn't a high impact player in Houston. He had a bigger impact in Philly so maybe it had something to do with how he was used in Houston.

Cushing didn't have the tackling numbers. Instead of diagnosing plays he flew to the ball which worked well in Wade's defense. He was super physical and owned the point of attack. He was very good in coverage his first 3 years which is rare for a big, point of attack MLB. He couldn't stay healthy and because of that had a career that is more about peak than longevity.

And like I said, Sharper is right there with both guys statistically and was a part of some solid defenses.
Forget about Sharper that's a red herring - it's a two man contest.

OK maybe Cushing in a stretch, of 2 - 3 years was better, but if we are gonna talk career vs career then DeMeco is the man.
Oh and as long as you are qualifying the results here's my question ?
How much would we want to discount Cushings stats and performance in general without the PEDs ?
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  #15  
Old 02-21-2018, 03:20 PM
barrett barrett is offline
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Originally Posted by nunusguy View Post
Forget about Sharper that's a red herring - it's a two man contest.

OK maybe Cushing in a stretch, of 2 - 3 years was better, but if we are gonna talk career vs career then DeMeco is the man.
Oh and as long as you are qualifying the results here's my question ?
How much would we want to discount Cushings stats and performance in general without the PEDs ?
Sharper's not a red herring.

Player A
125 Tackles 3.5 Sacks 1 INT 1 FF, 99/2/1/1, 86/1/0/2, 93/1/0/1

Player B
95/5.5/0/0, 105/4/0/3, 96/2/0/3

Player C
86/4/4/2, 53/1.5/0/1, 81/4/2/2

Tell me the player that doesn't belong on that list. All 3 are comparable and you aren't remembering how good Sharper was on some very solid defenses that get dismissed because the expansion offenses were so inept.

As for longevity or career vs career, Demeco played 6 years and 86 games for the Texans. Years 5 and 6 were shells of years 1-4. Cushing played 9 years and 104 games with the Texans. Years 4-9 were injury plagued and not nearly as good as years 1-3, but they were still better than the Demeco 34 years (2010-2011).

Overall career numbers are
Demeco
479 tackles, 8.5 sacks, 2 INTs, 6 FF
Cushing
428 tackles, 13.5 sacks, 8 INT, 9 FF

Whether you are talking peak or career, Cushing is the best Texans MLB and probably the best Texans LB until Clowney plays another season or two.

If you want to disqualify Cushing for the PED test I have no problem with that. I won't guess who is clean in the NFL with no offseason testing, so I assume they all are. But I'm truly ok if you want to assume they are clean without evidence to the contrary.
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  #16  
Old 02-21-2018, 05:07 PM
nunusguy nunusguy is offline
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I don't know where you are digging up your numbers ?
Wiki shows 939 total/combined tackles for DeMeco and 664 for Cushing while each has 13.5 sacks.
After your imagination we've only got the record for PEDs and one guy has never been busted but the other was busted twice.
FYI Cushing is a couple years younger so he might increase his totals if he
continues to play so maybe get back to me then if his totals are more impressive later.
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  #17  
Old 02-22-2018, 01:45 AM
barrett barrett is offline
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Originally Posted by nunusguy View Post
I don't know where you are digging up your numbers ?
Wiki shows 939 total/combined tackles for DeMeco and 664 for Cushing while each has 13.5 sacks.
After your imagination we've only got the record for PEDs and one guy has never been busted but the other was busted twice.
FYI Cushing is a couple years younger so he might increase his totals if he
continues to play so maybe get back to me then if his totals are more impressive later.
You are counting Demeco's numbers for the Eagles in a best Texans LB discussion. That may have been a simple mistake, or you may actually believe what he did for Philly qualifies him as the best Texan. If so I immediately nominate Tony Boselli for best Texans OL.

You are also using assisted tackle numbers to get to 939. That's fine, but it will actually help Cushing even out the tackles numbers since he had far more assisted tackles.

I think you should keep to opinions because stats are not your thing.
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  #18  
Old 02-22-2018, 09:17 AM
nunusguy nunusguy is offline
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Originally Posted by barrett View Post
You are counting Demeco's numbers for the Eagles in a best Texans LB discussion. That may have been a simple mistake, or you may actually believe what he did for Philly qualifies him as the best Texan. If so I immediately nominate Tony Boselli for best Texans OL.

You are also using assisted tackle numbers to get to 939. That's fine, but it will actually help Cushing even out the tackles numbers since he had far more assisted tackles.

I think you should keep to opinions because stats are not your thing.
OK I don't care because I thought we were comparing complete career vs complete coreer, no matter then forget about the part of DeMecos career in Philly because just in 6 seasons in Houston DeMeco vs Cushings 9 season career had 13 % more tackles (480 vs 424). In other words Cushing had a career in Houston that was 50% longer than DeMeco's Texans career while the 'Bama backer compiled greater tackle totals. Hell if DeMeco would have been 9 years in Houston he would maybe have doubled up Cushing.
That was a silly nomination of Boselli, you should have gone with Ed Reed, even sillier because look at all of the interception stats you could have used.
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Old 02-22-2018, 11:34 AM
barrett barrett is offline
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Originally Posted by nunusguy View Post
OK I don't care because I thought we were comparing complete career vs complete coreer, no matter then forget about the part of DeMecos career in Philly because just in 6 seasons in Houston DeMeco vs Cushings 9 season career had 13 % more tackles (480 vs 424). In other words Cushing had a career in Houston that was 50% longer than DeMeco's Texans career while the 'Bama backer compiled greater tackle totals. Hell if DeMeco would have been 9 years in Houston he would maybe have doubled up Cushing.
That was a silly nomination of Boselli, you should have gone with Ed Reed, even sillier because look at all of the interception stats you could have used.
I agree Ed Reed would have been the better choice.

I loved Demeco Ryans and think he's the 2nd best LB in Texans history. I think if the Texans hadn't switched to a 34 he might be the best LB in Texans history.
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  #20  
Old 02-22-2018, 02:28 PM
nunusguy nunusguy is offline
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Originally Posted by barrett View Post
I agree Ed Reed would have been the better choice.

I loved Demeco Ryans and think he's the 2nd best LB in Texans history. I think if the Texans hadn't switched to a 34 he might be the best LB in Texans history.
And I think he was the Texans best LB not to include the edge/OLBs in the 3-4 like Jadeveon Clowney which is where he plays when he' not a 4-3 or 3-4 DE.
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