Trade Dunta?

[superbowlbound]

I wanted to stay out of this, but this has clearly gone on too long. If this argument is going to continue, I'm gonna weigh in too. My opinion sits pretty much squarely in the middle between jp and barrett. Are we better with dunta? sure. Is our secondary decimated without him? not by any stretch of the imagination. as JP already said, the biggest reason our secondary looked so bad (apart from reeves' patent refusal to EVER turn his head to look for the ball) was because of our pass rush, which should be markedly improved this year, by both the new scheme (which will hopefully use our dt's strengths, which are primarily in the getting up field department) and the addition of connor barwin and antonio smith. While Bennett was bad last year, he showed improvement down the stretch, and is too talented and committed an individual to go pbust on us. A good front 7 will cover a myriad of secondary issues, and I now think we have one of the better front 7's in the league.

So back on point. Would I like to have dunta as a career texan? absolutely. Is that a likely outcome to this situation? I wouldn't rule it out, but I'm thinking no. I really get the sense that dunta's not so much offended that we f-tagged him, but that we didn't just hand him namdi asomugha's contract with his name on it, despite that horrific injury. Apparently, the fact that he came back early and the texans (with the no. 3 ranked offense in the league) won games after his return cancel out the fact that he allowed a 67% completion percentage to quarterbacks who threw at him. Honestly, I was surprised when I heard mcclain's report that he was offered chris gamble money. The only logic I can fathom is that his stance is "I was drafted higher than him, therefore I deserve more money" which is flawed from the beginning. With or without dunta, we're still a better team than we were last year. And, IMO, the titans, colts, and to a lesser extent the jags, are weaker than they were last year, so I won't cry if dunta doesn't show up into the season. He really oughta know that a holdout until week 1 won't help him in his audition for other teams now that we've got a new dc.

Also, while I personally liked matthews better than cushing, if for no other reason than he ran the same 10 yard split as darius heyward-bay at the combine, slb was a far greater need than wlb. Adibi and Diles can both play, when healthy, and the addition of cato june certainly doesn't hurt that situation. our front 7 is f-ing formidable, and that's a first for our franchise. That will necessarily improve the secondary, with or without dunta.

[jcp]

I generally agree with what SBB said....honestly don't really care anymore, I loved the way Dunta played the game pre-injury and would love to see it return for years. But if he has developed some grudge against the Texans we can do without.

I get the feeling the team now figures he'll eventually sign on for the 10 mil and one of two things will happen:

1. He'll return to form and fetch a better value in trade

or

2. He'll flame out and we'll be glad we didn't invest 23 mil (or whatever he was offered)

Now if somebody goes down in camp and we get a great deal for Dunta to fill in...maybe a trade happens this summer ala champ for portis

We'll see, but i no longer feel like it would be a catastrophic loss...

[jppaul]

In order to fetch anything in a trade we are going to have to resign Daniels or Ryans, so that we can F-tag Dunta.

[Keith]

Negotiations have apparently not improved. Anyone catch this report live? Here is PFT's take:

Jason La Canfora of NFL Network (via our semi-sister site Rotoworld.com) reports that the Texans and Robinson remain far apart in contract talks.

And that's significant now because, as of July 15, the Texans and Robinson will be relegated to a one-year deal only.

The July 15 deadline applies to all franchise players. After that date, there can be no multi-year deals. ...

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...ill-far-apart/

[painekiller]

Originally Posted by Keith

Negotiations have apparently not improved. Anyone catch this report live? Here is PFT's take:

I hate to say it, but I am of the notion now that a trade maybe the best option. Late in trading camp when injuries have crept in.

PFT showed an option where the Texans just flat cut him.

What if Bennett & Reeves look solid in preseason and Molden and Quinn have solid camps. Do you mess with the Chemistry and shuffle the guys who have been working there rears off? I might be getting to the point where I say bye bye.

[cland]

I'll have a major problem with Dunta if he continues the holdout through training camp. I understand the OTA holdout as the team still has time to put a long-term package together, and may be swayed by your non-participation to up the ante.

After July 15th has passed, skipping training camp only serves to hurt your team and yourself for the upcoming season. The team can't sign you to any contract until the season is over, so holding out from training camp does nothing from a negotiation standpoint. This is particularly relevant when a new secondary coach has joined the staff. You're not learning the new techniques and scheme, and you're not giving the new DC a chance to see what you bring to the table as he formulates his season long plan.

Part of what Dunta brings to the table is his leadership over the entire defense, but if he's willing to trade training camp for nothing more than a few extra weeks of vacation that leadership quality takes a major hit. So listen up Dunta, accept that you didn't get your long term deal, cash your 9.5m contract, and get your butt out on the field with all of your lower paid teammates.

[cadams]

Originally Posted by painekiller

I hate to say it, but I am of the notion now that a trade maybe the best option. Late in trading camp when injuries have crept in.

PFT showed an option where the Texans just flat cut him.

What if Bennett & Reeves look solid in preseason and Molden and Quinn have solid camps. Do you mess with the Chemistry and shuffle the guys who have been working there rears off? I might be getting to the point where I say bye bye.

I still think this would be a bad move. As I have said earlier, I don't have a problem trading him if you can get good value in return and you do it at the best time for the team. Trading him at the beginning of the season doesn't do the texans any good. If they are going to do that, they should have traded him before the draft so they would have new players this season. No need to do anything until after the season now.

Dunta will be on the field this year, and should be playing his best ball. He will be playing for a contract, even if it isn't with the texans. If he does play well this year that will only help the texans' position in trading him after the season if it comes to that.

All this being said, if someone were to offer some kind of crazy deal for Dunta before the season out of desperation then that would change my stance. It would have to be big though, in my opinion, something crazy like two, first rounders AND a second or third this year.

[painekiller]

Originally Posted by cadams

I still think this would be a bad move. As I have said earlier, I don't have a problem trading him if you can get good value in return and you do it at the best time for the team. Trading him at the beginning of the season doesn't do the texans any good. If they are going to do that, they should have traded him before the draft so they would have new players this season. No need to do anything until after the season now.

Dunta will be on the field this year, and should be playing his best ball. He will be playing for a contract, even if it isn't with the texans. If he does play well this year that will only help the texans' position in trading him after the season if it comes to that.

All this being said, if someone were to offer some kind of crazy deal for Dunta before the season out of desperation then that would change my stance. It would have to be big though, in my opinion, something crazy like two, first rounders AND a second or third this year.

Nice thought but you can not trade a player who is not under contract. And Dunta will not be under contract after the season is over. In fact right now the team can not discuss trades for Dunta until he signs his offer sheet.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by painekiller

Nice thought but you can not trade a player who is not under contract. And Dunta will not be under contract after the season is over. In fact right now the team can not discuss trades for Dunta until he signs his offer sheet.

Are you serious? We will franchise Dunta next year and he will be in the exact same position, so having him under contract is no issue.

As for talking to other teams now, we don't have to. His agent does. They look for a team willing to re-work his deal, and then come to us when they find one (exactly like we tried with Orlando Pace). Then terms of a trade are worked out. He signs his contract with us, is traded, and signs the new extension with his new team. It is very simple and fairly common.

Guys get traded who are franchised all the time, and many of them are yet to sign their offer sheet.

[nero THE zero]

Originally Posted by cland

I'll have a major problem with Dunta if he continues the holdout through training camp. I understand the OTA holdout as the team still has time to put a long-term package together, and may be swayed by your non-participation to up the ante.

After July 15th has passed, skipping training camp only serves to hurt your team and yourself for the upcoming season. The team can't sign you to any contract until the season is over, so holding out from training camp does nothing from a negotiation standpoint. This is particularly relevant when a new secondary coach has joined the staff. You're not learning the new techniques and scheme, and you're not giving the new DC a chance to see what you bring to the table as he formulates his season long plan.

Part of what Dunta brings to the table is his leadership over the entire defense, but if he's willing to trade training camp for nothing more than a few extra weeks of vacation that leadership quality takes a major hit. So listen up Dunta, accept that you didn't get your long term deal, cash your 9.5m contract, and get your butt out on the field with all of your lower paid teammates.

Meh. He's still risking injury without a long term deal if he comes back early. I wouldn't hold that against him.

But, the writing's on the wall. He won't be a Texan after this season. I just hope we trade him in order to get some value back in return; a late 3rd round compensatory pick in a couple of years would not suffice. So, be it this preseason, during the season, or after the season, I hope we deal him for a pick.

[nunusguy]

Originally Posted by barrett

Are you serious? We will franchise Dunta next year and he will be in the exact same position, so having him under contract is no issue.

As for talking to other teams now, we don't have to. His agent does. They look for a team willing to re-work his deal, and then come to us when they find one (exactly like we tried with Orlando Pace). Then terms of a trade are worked out. He signs his contract with us, is traded, and signs the new extension with his new team. It is very simple and fairly common.

Guys get traded who are franchised all the time, and many of them are yet to sign their offer sheet.

OK then, if that's how it works what if any implications are there of him signing vs not signing the Texans' tender offer on or before 7/15/'09 ?
BTW I don't see D-Rob fetching more than a second rounder at this time without a real "stress-test" this Fall ?

[cadams]

Originally Posted by painekiller

Nice thought but you can not trade a player who is not under contract. And Dunta will not be under contract after the season is over. In fact right now the team can not discuss trades for Dunta until he signs his offer sheet.

Barrett is correct. Also, if the texans tag dunta after the season another team could still sign him, they would just have to give up 2 first round picks for him if the texans don't match the offer or work out a different trade deal . . .at least that is how it works if my memory is correct.

[papabear]

Originally Posted by nunusguy

BTW I don't see D-Rob fetching more than a second rounder at this time without a real "stress-test" this Fall ?

I don't see him getting more than a second rounder anyway....It would have been tough to get a second for him pre-injury. Not that he's a bad player, but teams don't give up early draft picks that easily...and casserly isn't currently a GM anywhere.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by nunusguy

OK then, if that's how it works what if any implications are there of him signing vs not signing the Texans' tender offer on or before 7/15/'09 ?
BTW I don't see D-Rob fetching more than a second rounder at this time without a real "stress-test" this Fall ?

I believe 7/15 is just his last chance to sign an extension with the Texans. After that he can only sign his tender. But that doesn't affect the new deal that would have to come with any team that trades for him.

That is what people are forgetting who want to trade him. He is only going to agree to a trade if the team he is going to is willing to give him the new deal he is looking for. And nobody will trade for him without a new deal worked out ahead of time. So it's not like we can just unload him for a draft pick. We have to find a team willing to pay him what he wants AND give us what we want. It's not likely to happen.

[dadmg]

Originally Posted by barrett

Are you serious? We will franchise Dunta next year and he will be in the exact same position, so having him under contract is no issue.

I wouldn't be so certain of that. More than a few recent franchisees have been able to hold out on signing their franchise tender until the team made a contractual agreement not to franchise them again the following year. At this point, its not a certainty that franchising him again would be an option.

[superbowlbound]

Originally Posted by dadmg

I wouldn't be so certain of that. More than a few recent franchisees have been able to hold out on signing their franchise tender until the team made a contractual agreement not to franchise them again the following year. At this point, its not a certainty that franchising him again would be an option.

true, but most of them have had that agreement based on performance clauses, ie albert haynesworth's trip to the probowl. I would gladly give dunta that same stipulation, as I don't think he'll get there, at least not this season.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by dadmg

I wouldn't be so certain of that. More than a few recent franchisees have been able to hold out on signing their franchise tender until the team made a contractual agreement not to franchise them again the following year. At this point, its not a certainty that franchising him again would be an option.

But in all those cases the team needed the player on the field more than the player needed it. In essence it was a one year team rental.

In Dunta's case I don't think they applied the tag because they needed to keep him. They applied it because they were unwilling to let him walk in FA with no recompense. Smith already showed he is willing to upset Dunta and use the tag. I'd be shocked if their is a deal to not use it again. Right now we have all the leverage. We seem willing to go forward with him unsigned but tagged. If he doesn't play he hurts himself far more than he hurts us.

He will almost certainly sign with us and play this year at some point. If there was a team willing to give him a new deal and trade for him, then it would have happened already.

[edo783]

Dunta has been offered a F-tag, but that means zip if he doesn't sign it. We can't trade him until he does and that would be the same next year as well. So, if he doesn't sign it until the start of the season, are you willing to pay a guy 9.9 million who is coming off a bad injury, who showed last year he was horrible in coverage and when he does come back it would be at least game 3-4 before he is up to speed and able to play the new defense? IMO, it was way over paying him at 9.9 million when he was going to play a 16 game schedule AFTER a TC of learning and getting back into football shape, but to pay what is likely a VERY marginal CB 9.9 million for 2/3 - 3/4 of a season is ridiculous. IMO, if two weeks before the start of the season he hasn't signed, pull the F-tag and save the money rather than just flushing it down the drain on someone who is yet to show he is back from injury and likely would be a divisive factor in the locker room. Just save the money and find some other players that could provide some depth elsewhere.

[NBT]

So let's assume Dunta doesn't sign his F-tagged contract? He won't get paid will he? And what is with the 7-15 deadline, will he be able to sign with some other team after that, or do we still have his rights?

[painekiller]

Originally Posted by NBT

So let's assume Dunta doesn't sign his F-tagged contract? He won't get paid will he? And what is with the 7-15 deadline, will he be able to sign with some other team after that, or do we still have his rights?

IIRC if we pull the offer, then he is an unrestricted FA. Funny thing is in the middle of training camp not to many teams have $9M of cap money available.

I am with edo, but i also want to add the guys who are here have to be doing the job well enough that we would not miss Dunta. It is stupid to cut a player who is better then the ones you are starting.