Owen Daniels Contract Negotiations

[cadams]

Originally Posted by barrett

Isn't the goalline where a TE has most of their "critical" moments? If so I can't see paying OD huge money.

My problem is I don't see OD as one of our most important players and I think if you pay him big (even in an uncapped situation), than you end up with a dozen other guys wanting big paydays.

Just among our skill position guys OD is the #4 option. How many #4 options see big paydays?

#4 option? who are the three people you have in front of him?

AJ most certainly.

I am assuming you are including Slayton in there. He definitely had a great rookie year, but he needs to show he can continue that. Also, I guess what number slayton is depends on the situation. 3rd and 1, i got no problem saying he is top 2 options, 3rd and 7? not so sure.

You could go with walter, but i think daniels is a better option than him, and at no worse even with him.

also you have to think about positions when you make these decisions. if daniels is as good as your #2 wide receiver then he is worth much, much more than that #2. Given our scheme, daniels is often going to get matched up with a line backer since he is a tight end, which means there will often be a mismatch, you have to take that into account, and if they put a db on him, that opens up other options for the offense that wouldnt normally be there. again though, please list the three guys you have ahead of daniels. (schaub does not count)

[barrett]

Originally Posted by cadams

#4 option? who are the three people you have in front of him?

AJ most certainly.

I am assuming you are including Slayton in there. He definitely had a great rookie year, but he needs to show he can continue that. Also, I guess what number slayton is depends on the situation. 3rd and 1, i got no problem saying he is top 2 options, 3rd and 7? not so sure.

You could go with walter, but i think daniels is a better option than him, and at no worse even with him.

also you have to think about positions when you make these decisions. if daniels is as good as your #2 wide receiver then he is worth much, much more than that #2. Given our scheme, daniels is often going to get matched up with a line backer since he is a tight end, which means there will often be a mismatch, you have to take that into account, and if they put a db on him, that opens up other options for the offense that wouldnt normally be there. again though, please list the three guys you have ahead of daniels. (schaub does not count)

The three that you easily came up with. AJ is clearly our #1 offensive option. Everything revolves around him and the way that defenses must account for him.

Slaton is clearly #2. He was a big threat in both the passing and running game. He totalled over 1650 yards from scrimmage and 10 TDs.

Walter is a notch above Daniels as well. He went for 900 yards and 8 TDs. He is reliable over the middle, on the out route, and stretches the field. Most of the time you get one of the three with a second receiver. He did them all, and he is a great blocker. Honestly he is a better run blocker than OD.

Daniels has really good numbers for a TE, but he is still the #4 option for the Texans. He is a very smart player. He is great at adjusting his routes to give Schaub an outlet against the blitz. He shows great patience getting off of the line and into his routes and avoids safety coverage by doing this (that's why he runs the backside screen so well). He's a great fit here. He is honestly one of my favorite Texans. I hope we retain him. I just don't know of many teams paying option 4 huge money.

But I will admit that I looked at the other TE contracts around the league and they have leaped up the last few years with guys like Dallas Clark getting rich and even Chris Cooley cashing in. So he is honestly not being unreasonable.

So I hope OD gets his and it doesn't keep us from keeping everyone else we need to keep (because their are probably a dozen guys I think are more important to retain).

[superbowlbound]

Originally Posted by barrett

The three that you easily came up with. AJ is clearly our #1 offensive option. Everything revolves around him and the way that defenses must account for him.

Slaton is clearly #2. He was a big threat in both the passing and running game. He totalled over 1650 yards from scrimmage and 10 TDs.

Walter is a notch above Daniels as well. He went for 900 yards and 8 TDs. He is reliable over the middle, on the out route, and stretches the field. Most of the time you get one of the three with a second receiver. He did them all, and he is a great blocker. Honestly he is a better run blocker than OD.

Daniels has really good numbers for a TE, but he is still the #4 option for the Texans. He is a very smart player. He is great at adjusting his routes to give Schaub an outlet against the blitz. He shows great patience getting off of the line and into his routes and avoids safety coverage by doing this (that's why he runs the backside screen so well). He's a great fit here. He is honestly one of my favorite Texans. I hope we retain him. I just don't know of many teams paying option 4 huge money.

But I will admit that I looked at the other TE contracts around the league and they have leaped up the last few years with guys like Dallas Clark getting rich and even Chris Cooley cashing in. So he is honestly not being unreasonable.

So I hope OD gets his and it doesn't keep us from keeping everyone else we need to keep (because their are probably a dozen guys I think are more important to retain).

I'm not disagreeing entirely with you, as I think you're pretty much correct, save a bit of the walter argument. While the numbers don't lie, and his TD numbers were better than Daniels, what? 4 times over? But I think you underestimate his value as a security blanket, especially given how small slaton is. You really don't want slaton having to catch too many balls with his back to the defense in the middle of the field. Daniels does a great job as an outlet, which further increases his value. a reliable guy that can play in the seams and stretch the field from the TE position is not that easily found. As a reliable outlet in the flats, he saves wear on the only solid back on this roster, and allows Matt to stay in a rhythm by completing passes rather than eating sacks or chucking it out of bounds. The fact of the matter is that Daniels is easily one of the best TE's in football, and when guys like LJ Smith and Jim Kleinsasser are nearly lapping him in terms of cap numbers, the dude is owed a raise. period.

Also, you say that Walter is a much better run blocker than daniels, but look at who he's blocking. Daniels is up against strong side defensive ends and linebackers, while walter is blocking #2 CB's. when there's an 80 lb difference between the defenders in question, that argument doesn't really hold water. Besides, Daniels is an adequate, willing run blocker, so I don't see that as much of an issue.

[barrett]

Originally Posted by superbowlbound

I'm not disagreeing entirely with you, as I think you're pretty much correct, save a bit of the walter argument. While the numbers don't lie, and his TD numbers were better than Daniels, what? 4 times over? But I think you underestimate his value as a security blanket, especially given how small slaton is. You really don't want slaton having to catch too many balls with his back to the defense in the middle of the field. Daniels does a great job as an outlet, which further increases his value. a reliable guy that can play in the seams and stretch the field from the TE position is not that easily found. As a reliable outlet in the flats, he saves wear on the only solid back on this roster, and allows Matt to stay in a rhythm by completing passes rather than eating sacks or chucking it out of bounds. The fact of the matter is that Daniels is easily one of the best TE's in football, and when guys like LJ Smith and Jim Kleinsasser are nearly lapping him in terms of cap numbers, the dude is owed a raise. period.

Also, you say that Walter is a much better run blocker than daniels, but look at who he's blocking. Daniels is up against strong side defensive ends and linebackers, while walter is blocking #2 CB's. when there's an 80 lb difference between the defenders in question, that argument doesn't really hold water. Besides, Daniels is an adequate, willing run blocker, so I don't see that as much of an issue.

I agree with you here that he deserves a raise. I balk at how much out of gut reaction, but with my last post I went and looked at TE salaries and saw I was wrong about where they are at. It appears OD is not being unreasonable, and I hope he gets paid commensurate for what he does.

But I disagree regarding the blocking. Walter is often cracking in our run game and I have seen him stone LBs and be a willing speed bump for DL. OD on the other hand is often put in motion in the run game and is matched up heads up very rarely with a LB on the play side in our offense. Walter is a great run blocker and is far more eager for contact than daniels. But OD is a pass catching TE who is split off the line regularly so I have no problem with him not being a 6th OL in the run game. Honestly he 'blocks' more effectively by being a good receiver, spreading the field, and not tipping run or pass by being on the field than he does by actually blocking. But either way, I think Walter is a better option in the offense, and a very complete player. There are not many better WR2s in the NFL. Walter for a 7th rounder was probably our best trade ever.

[papabear]

Originally Posted by barrett

There are not many better WR2s in the NFL. Walter for a 7th rounder was probably our best trade ever.

Getting Walter was a brilliant move. I know he plays opposite Andre Johnson, but if you look back before he got here everyone was screaming that we needed a legitimate #2 to take some pressure off of Dre. Now that he's done that no one wants to give him credit for being a good WR (I'm not even going to put the #2 label on that). I'm not saying that playing alongside Dre doesn't help a ton, it does, but if it was so easy to operate across from Dre then why were our other receivers so bad before...besides the person throwing to them.

As far as blocking goes. Walter probably ranks higher as a blocker among WR's than Daniels does among TE's. I don't know that I would rate Walter as a better blocker straight up against OD though. OD has gotten much better as a blocker since he's been here, and I don't see any reason why his technique won't continue to improve.

[Bigtinylittle]

Originally Posted by papabear

I'm not saying that playing alongside Dre doesn't help a ton, it does, but if it was so easy to operate across from Dre then why were our other receivers so bad before...besides the person throwing to them.

I think Walter is clearly more valuable to the Texans than Daniels. I think the offense itself is what makes Owen's stats look so good. I have the feeling that if HWSRN were still here, Owen's stats would be so much lower that he would probably be asking for less than 3 million and hoping like hell he could get it.

I think it is a mistake to look at what other TEs are getting. To me, Daniels is much more replacable than Schaub, Slaton, Andre Johnson, or Walters. In fact, we may already have his replacement on the team, at a HUGE savings over what Daniels is asking. In fact, if we would receive the compensation in talent that a "top five" tight end is supposedly worth, I would trade Owen in a heartbeat and take my chances with what we have now. It seems to me we could get a top notch DT or a top notch SS for what Daniels is asking.

[papabear]

Originally Posted by Bigtinylittle

I think the offense itself is what makes Owen's stats look so good.

Is the offense the reason for it, or did Kubiak intentionally give the TE's bigger role as he began to see what a good one he had. Chicken or the egg thing, and there's no way to prove ones right and ones wrong really. Coaches have a system, but the details of the system change week to week. Kubiak wants to run the ball, but we weren't that succesfull with that until the line got together and we got a better running back...in what was supposed to be a "plug and play" offense for RB's that could succeed with low round talent.

I think it is a mistake to look at what other TEs are getting.

It could be a mistake to pay what other TE's are getting, but Daniels has every rite to ask for similar amounts. That's how the majority of contracts are determined in the NFL. Winslow and Clark have set the bar so to speak, whether we like it or not. If Owen was an older player I would probably be willing to drive him to the airport myself.

To me, Daniels is much more replaceable than Schaub, Slaton, Andre Johnson, or Walters. In fact, we may already have his replacement on the team, at a HUGE savings over what Daniels is asking.

Daniels likely is more replaceable than those guys, but that's a risky game to play; especially when a player is entering the prime of his career. No matter how much we like a rookie, it's always a crap shoot. Just because we had success with one late round TE doesn't mean we will with another. The Casey hype is getting a little out of hand IMO. I'm intrigued by him, and it's a great story because he's local. I hope he finds a place on the team and is very successful. The idea that a fifth round pick is going to come in and immediately replace 70 catches and 800+ yards is silly to me. It could happen, but that's something you can't depend on. I'm sure we would be just fine without Owen, but one other thing to remember is that Owen has worked hard at his blcoking since coming into the NFL to get where he's at now....which is only average at best. Casey has just as much, if not more, work to do in that department. If Casey was the starter we would likely revert to the days when the defense can tell what play we were running by which TE was in the game for a while.

In fact, if we would receive the compensation in talent that a "top five" tight end is supposedly worth, I would trade Owen in a heartbeat and take my chances with what we have now. It seems to me we could get a top notch DT or a top notch SS for what Daniels is asking.

No way you get a top flight DT. Those are way to rare in today's NFL. At this point ANY trade is very unlikely. If it was going to happen it would have happened at the draft. The only likely scenarios at this point are that we either agree to a long term deal with him, or he plays under the one year tender and we do it all over again next year...as either a RFA or FA depending on if there's a new CBA. If he's a FA next year then I would guess the chances of him being a Texan are very low.

[superbowlbound]

Barrett, I don't think I could agree with you more about the KW acquisition. Kevin Walter for a 7th round pick was on the same level as Luis Scola for Visilis Spinoulis. You're absolutely right. Walter is one of the most underrated players in the NFL. Just last night, as a matter of fact, I was having a discussion with a dude at the bar about this very subject, and then the passing game as a whole. He was saying that Kevin Walter sucks, that he shows up for 3 games a year, and is useless the rest of the time. Then I spouted off his numbers. "Damn, that good, huh?" And I told him to name me 5 #2 WR's better than him, and he couldn't get past anquan boldin and wes welker.

PB, You said exactly what I was trying to say about OD/KW's blocking.

BTL, Yes, with a crappy quarterback, OD's numbers would be far less, but so would KW's and Slaton's. Dre's gonna get his anyway. The way I see it, the only serious deficiency that OD has is that he doesn't catch TD's, while KW does. Let's take a moment to consider something. Now I don't have the exact numbers in front of me, so I don't know how many of KW's td's were from 20 yds and out, but I think it's pretty safe to say that he scored most often from inside the red zone, yeah? The TE is traditionally a much bigger target in the red zone, and when you have a good one, he must be accounted for by the defense. Now you've got one of the 2 best receivers in football on one side, and a top tier TE in the red zone. Those are two guys that will definitely be accounted for. Perhaps Walter is able to get open a little more often in the end zone because he's the guy the other team decided was going to be the one that beat them, if he could do it. You pick your poison, and it's not unreasonable to think that perhaps, in the red zone, teams pick Walter

[barrett]

Walter's 8 TDs were 14, 5, 8, 7, 39, 60, 17, and 58.

So he found the endzone from all over the field and had a number of long catches on the year in addition to the TDs. Walter benefits from the overall offensive talent and beats man coverage just like Daniels benefits from the overall offensive talent and beats man coverage. But in the Redzone, OD has little to do with Walter's performance. Teams are not shading goalline coverage towards a guy who does not catch TDs. Rather I think both guys benefit hugely from AJ and Walter just does a better job of cashing in in the redzone.

Either way I think Daniels is more "replacable", but I sincerely hope we don't have to replace any positive working part on our roster unless we are getting back a haul in return.

[cadams]

Originally Posted by barrett

Teams are not shading goalline coverage towards a guy who does not catch TDs. Rather I think both guys benefit hugely from AJ and Walter just does a better job of cashing in in the redzone.

Either way I think Daniels is more "replacable", but I sincerely hope we don't have to replace any positive working part on our roster unless we are getting back a haul in return.

We aren't going to change anyone's mind here, but I couldn't disagree more. Daniels is a tight end with wr hands and playmaking ability. In my opinion, that is much more valuable than you are giving it credit for. Teams have to scheme for Daniels because he is such a good player AT HIS POSITION. Week in and week out most teams don't have to worry about having a tight end on the opposing team with OD's skill set, therefore when they are getting ready to play the texans, they have to take that into account and plan ways to try to neutralize him. When you add that to the fact that AJ is one of the 2 best WRs in the league, it is going to give defenses fits, and allows for Walter, who is a top notch #2 to take advantage of the situation (which he does). Having to account for OD's skill sets also likely helps the run game as well, as teams have to put a guy in coverage they might normally leave in the box.

You can't really think that you could take OD out, put a rookie or another unproven player in, and it wouldn't have a negative effect on this offense.